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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:47 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
So the suffering Olympics is back on?
This is not a counterargument but context always matters. It's pretty clear you can't refute what I said.

WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
We can use the word, and you can't, is just bad policy. If you are offended by a word, it should be offensive regardless of who uses it. Race is increasingly becoming difficult to define. It's also continues to push this us vs. them mentality based along racial divides. I don't think I'm really that different from people of other races in my thoughts, wants and emotions. If we can agree that race is a social construct, then let's start to push that idea rather than continue to say we are so radically different that we cannot policy understand each other's circumstances.
It may be a word that shouldn't ever be used. That doesn't change the fact that it is much worse for others outside the group to say it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:47 am 
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WFR there are bigger issues creating an us vs. them mentality between African Americans and white people then the use of one word.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:55 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
WFR there are bigger issues creating an us vs. them mentality between African Americans and white people then the use of one word.

Which is why I voted for Sanders....though I don't think the did a good job taking on this issue (the split-labor market idea). He probably should have.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
So the suffering Olympics is back on?
This is not a counterargument but context always matters. It's pretty clear you can't refute what I said.

WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
We can use the word, and you can't, is just bad policy. If you are offended by a word, it should be offensive regardless of who uses it. Race is increasingly becoming difficult to define. It's also continues to push this us vs. them mentality based along racial divides. I don't think I'm really that different from people of other races in my thoughts, wants and emotions. If we can agree that race is a social construct, then let's start to push that idea rather than continue to say we are so radically different that we cannot policy understand each other's circumstances.
It may be a word that shouldn't ever be used. That doesn't change the fact that it is much worse for others outside the group to say it.


No it clearly is refuted. What you said does not even make sense. The suffering of others does not matter because black people have also suffered. That's an insane argument that places a huge burden on American black people.

It's not "much worse" for others to use a word if there clearly is no harmful intent. If merely hearing a word triggers people then no one should say it. Otherwise we are going into a hole trying to define who is "really black".

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Jbi11s wrote:
WFR there are bigger issues creating an us vs. them mentality between African Americans and white people then the use of one word.


Yes. And bullshit like this drives people apart, and makes those issues worse.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:08 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
WFR there are bigger issues creating an us vs. them mentality between African Americans and white people then the use of one word.


Yes. And bullshit like this drives people apart, and makes those issues worse.


I just don't think it does. So some people are asking black people to concede this word for everyone to use, but where does that get us on a societal level? What do black people get out of this?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:12 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
No it clearly is refuted. What you said does not even make sense. The suffering of others does not matter because black people have also suffered. That's an insane argument that places a huge burden on American black people.
I did not say the suffering of others doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter in regards to this situation. If there was a similar case to be made for another group in America then I'm all for them being granted the same courtesy.

WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
It's not "much worse" for others to use a word if there clearly is no harmful intent. If merely hearing a word triggers people then no one should say it. Otherwise we are going into a hole trying to define who is "really black".
As I explained, we can argue whether it is effective or not, but the usage of a slur by the targets of that slur is an attempt to change the meaning and effectiveness of that slur. That is why your statement here is wrong. They can't stop others from using the word but they can attempt to control how it is used.

Your last sentence is just bizarre.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:12 pm 
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One word isn't keeping anyone from being friends.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Jbi11s wrote:
One word isn't keeping anyone from being friends.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
No it clearly is refuted. What you said does not even make sense. The suffering of others does not matter because black people have also suffered. That's an insane argument that places a huge burden on American black people.
I did not say the suffering of others doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter in regards to this situation. If there was a similar case to be made for another group in America then I'm all for them being granted the same courtesy.

WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
It's not "much worse" for others to use a word if there clearly is no harmful intent. If merely hearing a word triggers people then no one should say it. Otherwise we are going into a hole trying to define who is "really black".
As I explained, we can argue whether it is effective or not, but the usage of a slur by the targets of that slur is an attempt to change the meaning and effectiveness of that slur. That is why your statement here is wrong. They can't stop others from using the word but they can attempt to control how it is used.

Your last sentence is just bizarre.


It's bizarre because you do not think about it with any level of nuance. What is black? Is a person who has one parent who is black allowed to use the word? What about one grandparent?

Beyond that, what if the person is a rich black person of privilege talking about poor blacks?

There are plenty of cases of oppression in US history: Native Americans and Japanese-Americans for example. What about people who suffered elsewhere, but now live here, say Polish people who were under Soviet rule until 1990?

There is no monopoly on suffering. And if we are going to say only black suffering matters, it's creating a terrible burden for American black people to live up to.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
One word isn't keeping anyone from being friends.


Julie

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:50 pm 
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To me it's like the word Caller Bob in America.


Women don't like it. And they don't call each other it for affection.

So the word just gets forgotten about.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:09 pm 
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IkeSouth wrote:
To me it's like the word Caller Bob in America.


Women don't like it. And they don't call each other it for affection.

So the word just gets forgotten about.


Who forgets the word Caller Bob? That's my go to car driving insult (regardless of gender of offending driver). Caller Bob is probably the greatest swear word of all time because its so vile to most people that it really gets your point across. 'That guy is a huge Caller Bob' gets a much bigger reaction than 'that guy is a motherfucker'

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:23 pm 
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How fucking dumb and/or racist do you have to be to passionately defend your right to use the word "n----r"? This is the hill you choose to die on?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Chus wrote:
As a white guy, I understand that I shouldn't use that word, so I don't. It's really not that difficult.

Yeah, these debates are always bizarre.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:13 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
How fucking dumb and/or racist do you have to be to passionately defend your right to use the word "n----r"? This is the hill you choose to die on?


Did not read the thread I see.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:48 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
How fucking dumb and/or racist do you have to be to passionately defend your right to use the word "n----r"? This is the hill you choose to die on?


Did not read the thread I see.

:lol:

Overall, an interesting thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:03 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
How fucking dumb and/or racist do you have to be to passionately defend your right to use the word "n----r"? This is the hill you choose to die on?


Did not read the thread I see.


Nah, I read it. I'm just not persuaded by your arguments about the seemingly pernicious effects of black people demonstrating a modicum of cultural power by redefining the meaning of and the terms under which a given racial epithet is to be used.

Language and power are inextricably linked, and you're mad because blacks have shown a little more power than whites in one instance.

It is interesting to note that such a view is possible only if one views racial politics as a zero-sum game, a flawed view that also makes it possible to hold blacks accountable for structural racial inequality when they are largely devoid of large-scale power within our society.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:05 am 
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So how does everyone feel about that drunk white bitch calling Joe Mixon a genius in public and, as a result, getting the shit smacked out of her?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:08 am 
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America wrote:
So how does everyone feel about that drunk white bitch calling Joe Mixon a nut in public and, as a result, getting the shit smacked out of her?

Wasn't that debunked?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:09 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
I'm just not persuaded by your arguments about the seemingly pernicious effects of black people demonstrating a modicum of cultural power by redefining the meaning of and the terms under which a given racial epithet is to be used.

Could you be persuaded that this redefinition of the word is okay, but that no one using it would be an improvement?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:11 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
So how does everyone feel about that drunk white bitch calling Joe Mixon a nut in public and, as a result, getting the shit smacked out of her?

Wasn't that debunked?

I dont know, would it surprise you if everyone who witnessed it decided to change their story to make the "victim" appear more sympathetic?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:14 am 
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the word has been 99.99% eliminated. is that not a success story?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:15 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
the word has been 99.99% eliminated. is that not a success story?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:20 am 
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Agree. More important things to focus on

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:53 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
How fucking dumb and/or racist do you have to be to passionately defend your right to use the word "n----r"? This is the hill you choose to die on?


Did not read the thread I see.


Nah, I read it. I'm just not persuaded by your arguments about the seemingly pernicious effects of black people demonstrating a modicum of cultural power by redefining the meaning of and the terms under which a given racial epithet is to be used.

Language and power are inextricably linked, and you're mad because blacks have shown a little more power than whites in one instance.

It is interesting to note that such a view is possible only if one views racial politics as a zero-sum game, a flawed view that also makes it possible to hold blacks accountable for structural racial inequality when they are largely devoid of large-scale power within our society.


This is bullshit to the highest order. First of all a "modicum" of cultural power? Black people have been the drivers of American culture. Without American blacks you have no Jazz, Rock or Rap. To state that they have to small cultural footprint, and controlling this word is one of the few areas that they have power is simply absurd.

Individual black people have reached the highest political office of the United States, and have been leaders in science, medicine, entertainment and business. To state that there remains a conspiracy to hold them back is nihilism of the highest order.

Think about the basics on this debate. One group of people based on race are able to use a word, but others are not. To me this goes against the core ideal of an American melting pot, one that will soon make race very difficult to cleanly define. This seems like a very dated battle to fight. Particularly when a 20-something who is already enjoying national success, calling someone who lived through the Civil Rights Era, and was on the right side of history a "slave-master". I don't see how any of it is helpful other than to continue to push alienation.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:58 am 
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I don't care about the word at the end of the day and whether people want to use it or not. I'm gonna end up doing whatever I want anyways. Ruffcorn is schooling everyone in this thread right now though.

What a cuck this Tall Midget guy is. Probably a Bernstein mult.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:02 pm 
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Hockey Gay wrote:
I don't care about the word at the end of the day and whether people want to use it or not. I'm gonna end up doing whatever I want anyways. Ruffcorn is schooling everyone in this thread right now though.

What a cuck this Tall Midget guy is. Probably a Bernstein mult.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:12 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
This is bullshit to the highest order. First of all a "modicum" of cultural power? Black people have been the drivers of American culture. Without American blacks you have no Jazz, Rock or Rap. To state that they have to small cultural footprint, and controlling this word is one of the few areas that they have power is simply absurd.

Individual black people have reached the highest political office of the United States, and have been leaders in science, medicine, entertainment and business. To state that there remains a conspiracy to hold them back is nihilism of the highest order.

Think about the basics on this debate. One group of people based on race are able to use a word, but others are not. To me this goes against the core ideal of an American melting pot, one that will soon make race very difficult to cleanly define. This seems like a very dated battle to fight. Particularly when a 20-something who is already enjoying national success, calling someone who lived through the Civil Rights Era, and was on the right side of history a "slave-master". I don't see how any of it is helpful other than to continue to push alienation.
It sounds like you are making a case that racism is no longer an issue in the United States. Is that accurate?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:58 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
How fucking dumb and/or racist do you have to be to passionately defend your right to use the word "n----r"? This is the hill you choose to die on?


Did not read the thread I see.


Nah, I read it. I'm just not persuaded by your arguments about the seemingly pernicious effects of black people demonstrating a modicum of cultural power by redefining the meaning of and the terms under which a given racial epithet is to be used.

Language and power are inextricably linked, and you're mad because blacks have shown a little more power than whites in one instance.

It is interesting to note that such a view is possible only if one views racial politics as a zero-sum game, a flawed view that also makes it possible to hold blacks accountable for structural racial inequality when they are largely devoid of large-scale power within our society.


This is bullshit to the highest order. First of all a "modicum" of cultural power? Black people have been the drivers of American culture. Without American blacks you have no Jazz, Rock or Rap. To state that they have to small cultural footprint, and controlling this word is one of the few areas that they have power is simply absurd.

Individual black people have reached the highest political office of the United States, and have been leaders in science, medicine, entertainment and business. To state that there remains a conspiracy to hold them back is nihilism of the highest order.

Think about the basics on this debate. One group of people based on race are able to use a word, but others are not. To me this goes against the core ideal of an American melting pot, one that will soon make race very difficult to cleanly define. This seems like a very dated battle to fight. Particularly when a 20-something who is already enjoying national success, calling someone who lived through the Civil Rights Era, and was on the right side of history a "slave-master". I don't see how any of it is helpful other than to continue to push alienation.


:lol:

Who said anything about a conspiracy? Do you even understand the concept of institutional racism? Take a look at the disparities between wealth, income, education, and incarceration rates based on race in the United States. Are those disparities a product or merit or something else? If the latter, what?

Of course exceptional blacks rise to the highest levels of American society. But the "talented tenth"--as DuBois might say--is hardly indicative of larger patterns within the social order. Your entire argument above is based on exceptions to the way society works, fails to grasp fundamental social conditions, and is thus entirely devoid of merit.

As for your argument about race as a social construct, you do realize that racial boundaries in the U.S. have been fluid at many key points throughout our history, correct? This is the point of many scholarly works published on American racial history over the past 20 years. Nevertheless, the fact that racial identity is socially constructed hardly mitigates the effects of racism within our society.

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