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 Post subject: Waco: Madman or Messiah?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:36 am 
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Two night special on A&E. i chose this over the Paramount Network 6-part miniseries although I may give that a shot at some point. i've always been fascinated by this event, going back to late winter/early spring of 1993 when i followed it live, whatever covered it. I still remember when the building caught fire.

i haven't seen all of the special yet, but i saw most of the ending. it's amazing that the survivors not only stand by koresh, but wish they had died with their compatriots.

i like that the doc doesn't take sides. everyone interviewed believes their side of the story is the truth, and that it happened exactly the only way it could have.

this major fuck up by the government, coupled with ruby ridge, is exactly why i have never bought the "inside job" theory of 9/11. there is no way this keystone cop government could have executed something that elaborate and devastating so well. especially when they couldn't even negotiate correctly with a bunch of religious idiots.

not to mention, koresh *did* come through with his promise of interpreting the seven seals, and committed them to disks. had the ATF waited, and received the seals themselves, there probably could have been some kind of resolution that didn't involve all those deaths.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:01 am 
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Thanks for mentioning this. Maybe I will find some time to watch this as well as anything on Ruby Ridge.

I need to be reminded of what these people were all about and why the government was so damn insisting on "getting" them. That of course led to the fuck ups.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:34 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:37 am 
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Alls I know is one of the seals was Kanye and A$AP Rocky wearing dresses #notinmyhiphop

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:26 pm 
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I remember how wrong I thought it was at the time that the FBI attacked this group, because they were Christians and that Koresh viewed himself as a prophet. The charges were completely phony, when compared to their right of freedom of religion. The religious views of the Branch Davidians might have been unorthodox, like the Seventh Day Adventists or Pentecostals, but that is no reason to have used armed force, when they weren't threatening anyone. What happened in Waco is really emblematic of the oppressive police regime we live under.

The reason the FBI went in was pretty much the same reason the Bush Administration gave for going into Iraq, that Koresh was committing crimes against his own people. Janet Reno has a special place in hell for what she did.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:32 pm 
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A lot of Boardwalk Empire guys in this thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:37 pm 
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You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


I mean I would prefer my federal law enforcement not to shoot people in the back when they are running away.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:43 pm 
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ToxicMasculinity wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


I mean I would prefer my federal law enforcement not to shoot people in the back when they are running away.

See you in the cop threads!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:45 pm 
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ToxicMasculinity wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


I mean I would prefer my federal law enforcement not to shoot people in the back when they are running away.
I agree. I said you can argue about the tactics. A lot of this story is a 'he said he said'. Both sides could have and should have done some things differently.

The fact remains that there were weapons in the compound, and the Davidians were highly trained on them and ready to use them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:02 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Thanks for mentioning this. Maybe I will find some time to watch this as well as anything on Ruby Ridge.

I need to be reminded of what these people were all about and why the government was so damn insisting on "getting" them. That of course led to the fuck ups.

PBS had a good American Experience last year on Ruby Ridge. Check it out if you haven't seen it.

Between Ruby Ridge and Waco, you can certainly understand why there was some understandable blow back in the 1990s. I cannot approve of what happened in that blow back, but I can certainly understand the why. There is no way to justify blowing up a building that included a day care, even if there was rightful anger at the agencies also housed in it.

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Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:05 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
ToxicMasculinity wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


I mean I would prefer my federal law enforcement not to shoot people in the back when they are running away.
I agree. I said you can argue about the tactics. A lot of this story is a 'he said he said'. Both sides could have and should have done some things differently.

The fact remains that there were weapons in the compound, and the Davidians were highly trained on them and ready to use them.

Regardless of your thoughts on Waco, I don't think Ruby Ridge can be classified as anything other than straight up entrapment followed by murder at the hands of 3 letter agencies.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:17 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
ToxicMasculinity wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


I mean I would prefer my federal law enforcement not to shoot people in the back when they are running away.

See you in the cop threads!

my thoughts exactly.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
I remember how wrong I thought it was at the time that the FBI attacked this group, because they were Christians and that Koresh viewed himself as a prophet. The charges were completely phony, when compared to their right of freedom of religion. The religious views of the Branch Davidians might have been unorthodox, like the Seventh Day Adventists or Pentecostals, but that is no reason to have used armed force, when they weren't threatening anyone. What happened in Waco is really emblematic of the oppressive police regime we live under.

The reason the FBI went in was pretty much the same reason the Bush Administration gave for going into Iraq, that Koresh was committing crimes against his own people. Janet Reno has a special place in hell for what she did.

Janet Reno absolutely deserves a place in hell. I think it is fair to point out that the abuses in the Justice Dept did not start with her though as Ruby Ridge (just as awful, just on a smaller scale) occurred under the 1st Bush administration.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


Illegal weapons? So much for that right to bear arms!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


Illegal weapons? So much for that right to bear arms!

yet I'm told I'm paranoid when I say I stand against a gun registry as it would be used as a target map for future gun confiscations

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:34 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:34 pm 
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They were illegally modifying their guns to be automatic weapons.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:54 pm 
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ToxicMasculinity wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


I mean I would prefer my federal law enforcement not to shoot people in the back when they are running away.

Pussification of America

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:57 pm 
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So, he was the Messiah?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
They were illegally modifying their guns to be automatic weapons.


Based on the word of a disgruntled ex-worshipper they killed and burned them all serving warrants. Cool.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:35 am 
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so i gave the Paramount Channel miniseries a shot. i'm actually impressed, it's very well acted and well cast. taylor kitsch is outstanding as koresh, and they really make him a believable "leader".

rory culkin (looking like a young glenn danzig), melissa benoist (supergirl!), john leguizamo, and michael shannon rounding it out.

i'll definitely watch the rest. only have seen the first 2 episodes.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:45 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
You can argue about the tactics, and what Koresh did and said all you want.

They had illegal weapons in there. That is not a phony reason to have a warrant served or changes brought up.


Illegal weapons? So much for that right to bear arms!

Hey man, how do we know it wasn't a typo and it's the right to bare arms? I've seen some pretty impressive gun shows / art museums in my day.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:50 am 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
So, he was the Messiah?

Either him.or Marshall Applewhite, yeah!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:14 am 
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W_Z wrote:
rory culkin (looking like a young glenn danzig),


:lol: I was trying to think who he reminded me of. He may actually be shorter than Danzig.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:17 am 
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W_Z wrote:
so i gave the Paramount Channel miniseries a shot. i'm actually impressed, it's very well acted and well cast. taylor kitsch is outstanding as koresh, and they really make him a believable "leader".

rory culkin (looking like a young glenn danzig), melissa benoist (supergirl!), john leguizamo, and michael shannon rounding it out.

i'll definitely watch the rest. only have seen the first 2 episodes.


Yeah, I caught the first 2 last night...agree completely.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:42 am 
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The one thing I don't like about it- and I'm sure Regular Reader and DannyB will agree- is that it impugns the honorable men and women of our tremendous federal law enforcement agencies.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:43 am 
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It would be an interesting cross section to see the amount of people that think the police were wrong in this circumstance but defend cops for the other killings they do that don't involve people with semi-automatics who may have been making them automatics who are held up in a bunker stockpiling weapons.

I'm pretty sure that the cops here feared for their lives much more than a cop who comes upon a kid in a park playing with a toy.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:48 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The one thing I don't like about it- and I'm sure Regular Reader and DannyB will agree- is that it impugns the honorable men and women of our tremendous federal law enforcement agencies.


I believe that it was written based on a book by Young, Short Glenn Danzig's character...which explains a lot, but, IIRC, even law enforcement has come out very critical over the way Ruby Ridge and Waco were handled...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:18 am 
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Awful fact, but this asshole murdered people at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. It's a damn shame someone hasn't served vigilante justice upon him as I would applaud it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi

He was actually charged for his actions at Ruby Ridge but the Justice Department intervened to make the case go away.

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