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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:03 pm 
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FF wrote:
The Patriots were geniuses for picking Brady so late in the draft and then orchestrating Bledsoe's injury so Brady could take over.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:06 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FF wrote:
The Patriots were geniuses for picking Brady so late in the draft and then orchestrating Bledsoe's injury so Brady could take over.

You seem to be confused about this whole thing. The Cutler trade was objectively a bad trade from Bears perspective. There's no counter argument to that. You seem to be suggesting that since the Bears and Angelo aren't psychics, they can't be blamed for the trade. That's obviously pretty stupid logic. Nobody in the sports world can predict the future. That doesn't stop us from evaluating trades and draft picks based on the results. You seem to be under the impression that intention is all that matters, which is quite frankly hilarious.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:12 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FF wrote:
The Patriots were geniuses for picking Brady so late in the draft and then orchestrating Bledsoe's injury so Brady could take over.

You seem to be confused about this whole thing. The Cutler trade was objectively a bad trade from Bears perspective. There's no counter argument to that. You seem to be suggesting that since the Bears and Angelo aren't psychics, they can't be blamed for the trade. That's obviously pretty stupid logic. Nobody in the sports world can predict the future. That doesn't stop us from evaluating trades and draft picks based on the results. You seem to be under the impression that intention is all that matters, which is quite frankly hilarious.


Not intention - the process of reaching that decision. Again I'll never blame the bears for acquiring an objectively talented 25 year old QB with coachable flaws to his game. If you blame Angelo for acquiring Cutler then you're pretty much doing that in hindsight, with the exception of maybe 312 and a few others who didn't like Cutler from the start.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:15 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FF wrote:
The Patriots were geniuses for picking Brady so late in the draft and then orchestrating Bledsoe's injury so Brady could take over.

You seem to be confused about this whole thing. The Cutler trade was objectively a bad trade from Bears perspective. There's no counter argument to that. You seem to be suggesting that since the Bears and Angelo aren't psychics, they can't be blamed for the trade. That's obviously pretty stupid logic. Nobody in the sports world can predict the future. That doesn't stop us from evaluating trades and draft picks based on the results. You seem to be under the impression that intention is all that matters, which is quite frankly hilarious.


Not intention - the process of reaching that decision. Again I'll never blame the bears for acquiring an objectively talented 25 year old QB with coachable flaws to his game. If you blame Angelo for acquiring Cutler then you're pretty much doing that in hindsight, with the exception of maybe 312 and a few others who didn't like Cutler from the start.

Intention is the process of reaching a decision for the purposes of this discussion. So, again, by your logic, you literally can't criticize any trade or any draft pick ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:19 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FF wrote:
The Patriots were geniuses for picking Brady so late in the draft and then orchestrating Bledsoe's injury so Brady could take over.

You seem to be confused about this whole thing. The Cutler trade was objectively a bad trade from Bears perspective. There's no counter argument to that. You seem to be suggesting that since the Bears and Angelo aren't psychics, they can't be blamed for the trade. That's obviously pretty stupid logic. Nobody in the sports world can predict the future. That doesn't stop us from evaluating trades and draft picks based on the results. You seem to be under the impression that intention is all that matters, which is quite frankly hilarious.


Not intention - the process of reaching that decision. Again I'll never blame the bears for acquiring an objectively talented 25 year old QB with coachable flaws to his game. If you blame Angelo for acquiring Cutler then you're pretty much doing that in hindsight, with the exception of maybe 312 and a few others who didn't like Cutler from the start.

Intention is the process of reaching a decision for the purposes of this discussion. So, again, by your logic, you literally can't criticize any trade or any draft pick ever.


How so? Acquiring Ben Wallace when you need offense and when you already have the future Ben Wallace in Tyson Chandler is a dumb decision/intention whatever. Acquiring Jay Cutler at 25 when youre solid on D but lacking on O is a sound decision. Not sure what youre talking about.

And with drafts, yeah there's an element of not being able to criticize because it's basically a lottery except in very few cases. You can't tell me the two teams in front of Chicago are dumb as hell for passing on Jordan when he wasn't even "Jordan" and at the time. Trades are different because they involve known commodities for the most part.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:25 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FF wrote:
The Patriots were geniuses for picking Brady so late in the draft and then orchestrating Bledsoe's injury so Brady could take over.

You seem to be confused about this whole thing. The Cutler trade was objectively a bad trade from Bears perspective. There's no counter argument to that. You seem to be suggesting that since the Bears and Angelo aren't psychics, they can't be blamed for the trade. That's obviously pretty stupid logic. Nobody in the sports world can predict the future. That doesn't stop us from evaluating trades and draft picks based on the results. You seem to be under the impression that intention is all that matters, which is quite frankly hilarious.


Not intention - the process of reaching that decision. Again I'll never blame the bears for acquiring an objectively talented 25 year old QB with coachable flaws to his game. If you blame Angelo for acquiring Cutler then you're pretty much doing that in hindsight, with the exception of maybe 312 and a few others who didn't like Cutler from the start.

Intention is the process of reaching a decision for the purposes of this discussion. So, again, by your logic, you literally can't criticize any trade or any draft pick ever.


How so? Acquiring Ben Wallace when you need offense and when you already have the future Ben Wallace in Tyson Chandler is a dumb decision/intention whatever. Acquiring Jay Cutler at 25 when youre solid on D but lacking on O is a sound decision. Not sure what youre talking about.

And with drafts, yeah there's an element of not being able to criticize because it's basically a lottery except in very few cases. You can't tell me the two teams in front of Chicago are dumb as hell for passing on Jordan when he wasn't even "Jordan" and at the time. Trades are different because they involve known commodities for the most part.

Every trade or draft pick or FA signing can be explained away using your logic. The Ben Wallace signing - they needed veteran leadership and Tyson hadn't shown signs of being that type of player yet and wouldn't become that type of player for until a few years later. I could do this for every decision you think GarPax fucked up.

Your last paragraph is just wrong. If it was a simple lottery the same teams and GMs wouldn't be consistently good and bad at it. What, is Ozzie Newsome simply the luckiest guy in the NFL?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Vegan says the trade was the right move to make at the time which everyone would agree with.

FavreFan says the trade ended up being bad which everyone would agree with.

This is two guys arguing out of boredom. Maybe booze is involved as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:29 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Cutler cost dozens of people their jobs....Angelo, Lovie, how many OC's and all the other assistants that lost their jobs in the transitions. Emery hired Trestman because of Cutler. Cutler committed career genocide.

All of that is irrelevant apparently. Still a great trade according to Frank and Vegan


Jerry Angelo should be sued for knowingly acquiring a player who was projected to cost dozens of people their jobs.

Nope, just fired for making one of the worst trades in Bear history, and he was fired for that reason so it's all good.


:lol: You can't keep your revisionist history straight. Angelo was fired for sucking at drafting, and the whole Sam Hurd thing might have played a role too. Cutler was still "the guy" when Angelo left. In fact they started 7-3 that year before Cutler got hurt, and went to the NFC championship game the year before, so you're way off. :lol: :lol:

You can't keep your philosophies straight. Can Angelo be criticized for his bad drafts or did he just get unlucky and buy the wrong lottery numbers?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Hockey Gay wrote:
Vegan says the trade was the right move to make at the time which everyone would agree with.

FavreFan says the trade ended up being bad which everyone would agree with.

This is two guys arguing out of boredom. Maybe booze is involved as well.

Vegan and Frank still think it was a great trade. That sort of blows my mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:33 pm 
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I don't get what you mean by explained away. You explained nothing about the Wallace signing. The biggest problem with that team was the lack of offense. They already had solid lockeroom guys in Gordon Hinrich and Deng. It's hit or miss across the league for drafts. Players fall into your lap through no effort of your own. You never answered the question about Oden vs Durant: is the Seattle GM "smarter" than the Portland GM, or is he just lucky as hell? Same with Rod Thorn?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:38 pm 
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So vegan thinks since the intent of the trade was good that it makes it a good trade.

FavreFan thinks since it didn't work out it makes it a bad trade even if the intent was good.

Intent or Result?

Hmmmm...I'd go with FavreFan here. Results are everything.

I see vegan's point though.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:40 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
I don't get what you mean by explained away. You explained nothing about the Wallace signing. The biggest problem with that team was the lack of offense. They already had solid lockeroom guys in Gordon Hinrich and Deng. It's hit or miss across the league for drafts. Players fall into your lap through no effort of your own. You never answered the question about Oden vs Durant: is the Seattle GM "smarter" than the Portland GM, or is he just lucky as hell? Same with Rod Thorn?

Well, there's no way to know if he was smarter or not, since he picked afterwards. Maybe he would've made the same mistake. But we do know that it would've been a mistake. You seem to be saying it wasn't a mistake to draft guys like Oden and Bowie first since it was impossible to know at the time.

And yes I did explain the Wallace signing the same way you explained the Cutler trade. From the Bulls perspective, they were signing the top free agent on the market, adding veteran leadership(Deng, Gordon, and Kirk were not veterans at the time), and hurting a division rival by signing one of their best players. There were "reasons" for the signing. So, by your logic, if they had a reason to do it, and couldn't predict the future, you can't criticize them for it. Even though it ended up disastrously. Just like the Cutler trade.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:40 pm 
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The trade was bad because all the red flags were ignored.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Hockey Gay wrote:
So vegan thinks since the intent of the trade was good that it makes it a good trade.

FavreFan thinks since it didn't work out it makes it a bad trade even if the intent was good.

Intent or Result?

Hmmmm...I'd go with FavreFan here. Results are everything.

I see vegan's point though.

I get what vegan is saying, but if you go with his philosophy then we basically can't argue about sports anymore. No coaching move, trade, free agent signing, draft pick, or roster transaction can ever be criticized, because the team had a reason for doing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The trade was bad because all the red flags were ignored.

That's because we were getting a Pro Bowl QB.

Honestly though, in hindsight we should have all saw this coming. We thought that doofus pudge face was going to be a franchise QB.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Hockey Gay wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The trade was bad because all the red flags were ignored.

That's because we were getting a Pro Bowl QB.

Honestly though, in hindsight we should have all saw this coming. We thought that doofus pudge face was going to be a franchise QB.


We couldn't have seen it. We are a QB-starved franchise with a 25-year-old Pro Bowl QB. No way we could have gotten out of that spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Hockey Gay wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The trade was bad because all the red flags were ignored.

That's because we were getting a Pro Bowl QB.

Honestly though, in hindsight we should have all saw this coming. We thought that doofus pudge face was going to be a franchise QB.




The pro bowl doesn't mean dick, tons of scrubs make the pro bowl, most guys turn the game down and rest up from playing post season football and they pick bums off the scrap heap.


All pro = impressive
Pro bowl= meaningless

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:28 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Cutler cost dozens of people their jobs....Angelo, Lovie, how many OC's and all the other assistants that lost their jobs in the transitions. Emery hired Trestman because of Cutler. Cutler committed career genocide.

All of that is irrelevant apparently. Still a great trade according to Frank and Vegan


Jerry Angelo should be sued for knowingly acquiring a player who was projected to cost dozens of people their jobs.

Nope, just fired for making one of the worst trades in Bear history, and he was fired for that reason so it's all good.


:lol: You can't keep your revisionist history straight. Angelo was fired for sucking at drafting, and the whole Sam Hurd thing might have played a role too. Cutler was still "the guy" when Angelo left. In fact they started 7-3 that year before Cutler got hurt, and went to the NFC championship game the year before, so you're way off. :lol: :lol:

You can't keep your philosophies straight. Can Angelo be criticized for his bad drafts or did he just get unlucky and buy the wrong lottery numbers?


Angelo's record probably proves my point about the crapshoot that is any league's draft: During the first half of his tenure with the Bears, he built the core of a team that went to the Superbowl. Over the latter half of his tenure, his drafts did not produce the same quality of players that his initial drafts did. Did he become a worse GM over time? The more likely explanation is that this shit is random and, while you need to prepare and whatnot, the fact is there are too many variables involved for the success or failure of a player to be solely pinned on the GM. Some of those factors include draft placement, a player's personal demons or lack thereof, player development systems, coaches, workplace environment, opportunities, etc. Unless a GM goes out of his way to acquire a specific player I'm not sure we can assign credit or blame so easily when a player turns out to be a stud or dud.

FavreFan wrote:
Hockey Gay wrote:
So vegan thinks since the intent of the trade was good that it makes it a good trade.

FavreFan thinks since it didn't work out it makes it a bad trade even if the intent was good.

Intent or Result?

Hmmmm...I'd go with FavreFan here. Results are everything.

I see vegan's point though.

I get what vegan is saying, but if you go with his philosophy then we basically can't argue about sports anymore. No coaching move, trade, free agent signing, draft pick, or roster transaction can ever be criticized, because the team had a reason for doing it.


You can always judge the merits of the reasoning plus the "goods" that are exchanged the during any transaction. Let's go back to the Wallace deal: I think there are plenty of reasons to criticize the deal, including reasons that undermine your hypothetical points in favor of the deal. I already mentioned the team's thirst for offense that was not going to be solved by adding Wallace. In fact, Wallace would make those problems even worse because he can't play offense for shit. That's a major point against the deal. You mentioned leadership but that's easily rebutted by the cost it took to add that "leadership," (i.e. was "leadership" worth however much money he signed for at his age? No. Just sign Popeye Jones or PJ Brown or whatever for the veteran's minimum if you really need leadership) plus how it meant Tyson Chandler, a younger asset, would likely be benched or moved to make room for Wallace. Then there's Wallace as a player: on the wrong side of 30, declining athleticism, short for his position, limited game, and so on. In short, this is not someone who is going to take your team to the next level. So yes Paxson had reasons for the deal, but those reasons do not act as self-justifications - they can and should be scrutinized.

FavreFan wrote:
Well, there's no way to know if he was smarter or not, since he picked afterwards. Maybe he would've made the same mistake. But we do know that it would've been a mistake. You seem to be saying it wasn't a mistake to draft guys like Oden and Bowie first since it was impossible to know at the time.


Yes, in terms of pure logic I think it's sound to say drafting Oden over Durant was not a "mistake." Like I said before, there's too much luck and chance involved for me to credit Seattle for drafting Durant and make fun of Portland for drafting Oden. In this case I simply think Portland was unlucky while Seattle was lucky. If it became known that Seattle pushed hard for Durant and wouldn't have taken Oden or whatever then that's slightly different.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:37 am 
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Children...it is the results of the trade that matter ie.Brock for Broglio

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:42 am 
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Walt Williams Neck wrote:
Children...it is the results of the trade that matter ie.Feldman for Arietta


Fixed


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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:50 am 
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312player wrote:
Hockey Gay wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The trade was bad because all the red flags were ignored.

That's because we were getting a Pro Bowl QB.

Honestly though, in hindsight we should have all saw this coming. We thought that doofus pudge face was going to be a franchise QB.




The pro bowl doesn't mean dick, tons of scrubs make the pro bowl, most guys turn the game down and rest up from playing post season football and they pick bums off the scrap heap.


All pro = impressive
Pro bowl= meaningless

Been saying that for years.....spot 0n 312

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:24 am 
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The pro bowl season of Cutler wasn't that much different than his best seasons with the Bears and he wasn't close to the pro bowl here. Lucky he got one.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:58 am 
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Stantis hits a home run today in this morning's Trib... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:23 am 
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I've seen too many off seasons won followed by failed in seasons to care praise the logic in acquiring players rather than the production.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:26 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
I've seen too many off seasons won followed by failed in seasons to care praise the logic in acquiring players rather than the production.


You can simultaneously praise the logic while being disappointed with the production. I assume you'd apply the same logic in the future if it applies.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:38 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I've seen too many off seasons won followed by failed in seasons to care praise the logic in acquiring players rather than the production.


You can simultaneously praise the logic while being disappointed with the production. I assume you'd apply the same logic in the future if it applies.
The problem is that you are acting like the Jay Cutler trade was a no brainer. It wasn't. It was probably a good chance to take but it wasn't without red flags that ended up being absolutely true. Compare it to the drafting of Andrew Luck. There was no other option for the Colts there. They had to do it.

If Luck failed, it really wouldn't have been for any reason that wasn't a concern at the time they drafted him. With Cutler, the exact knocks on him ended up plaguing him and the Bears for his whole time here. In hindsight, if Cutler doesn't get to the pro bowl as the 27th alternate quarterback we probably don't view him nearly as much of a can't miss prospect that some seemingly thought.

Now, I would say that the trade was justifiable given the upside potential, but that doesn't mean that a trade that worked out bad for the Bears was actually still good.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler..... Cut
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:58 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I've seen too many off seasons won followed by failed in seasons to care praise the logic in acquiring players rather than the production.


You can simultaneously praise the logic while being disappointed with the production. I assume you'd apply the same logic in the future if it applies.


Academically you would think that sound decisions taken over a large sample size will result in winning. I'm not so sure that is true. I cannot think of the last NE move that I thought was sound.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


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