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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:34 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But are you confident that Pace is not that guy? I think that's an important distinction.
If I had to predict the career of Pace here, I would say he is fired after year 4 or 5 and the Bears don't make the playoffs under his watch. The only real way I see that not happening if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is able to bail him out by being an elite quarterback.

Might be right. It all depends on Fox and/or his successor. The talent is there.
That's another problem.

1) Hired Fox.
2) Signed Glennon.

Both are clearly huge mistakes.

Do we trust him to hire a new coach, and to develop a team where (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky can succeed?


Fairly obvious to me this will be Fangio's job to turn down next year.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:35 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But are you confident that Pace is not that guy? I think that's an important distinction.
If I had to predict the career of Pace here, I would say he is fired after year 4 or 5 and the Bears don't make the playoffs under his watch. The only real way I see that not happening if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is able to bail him out by being an elite quarterback.

Might be right. It all depends on Fox and/or his successor. The talent is there.
That's another problem.

1) Hired Fox.
2) Signed Glennon.

Both are clearly huge mistakes.

Do we trust him to hire a new coach, and to develop a team where (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky can succeed?



This is what I mean. We matters not one iota.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:35 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
pittmike wrote:
He wants a new season long argument point this year as his whipping boy Cutler is gone.
Instead of jumping in like this why not tell me I'm wrong and that Pace is going to turn the Bears into a playoff team next year or the year after?


It does not matter at this point whether you are right or wrong. Pace certainly has not made all the right moves. I am certain though that he will not be fired now, at the end of the year or until he runs through another coach for at least two years.

So I am saying it is pointless to argue for several pages after a bad game about it. But feel free to continue.

I appreciate your permission.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:37 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
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He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.
I expect to see improvement in year 3, whether it is a player, coach, or GM. I just don't see it on this team.

This is what it comes down to with me too. And I see the (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky pick as just as much about Pace cynically buying himself another year regardless of how embarrassing this season goes just because the potential quarterback of the future MAY be ready to go next year. Everyone was praising his "boldness" for trading up for him and how risky it was, but it's interesting to me how many fans are now arguing for him to actually keep his job after the debacle that was last season and likely repeat this season.

I'd like clarification on if he was told to keep Fox and/or told to give Cutler one last year to prove himself. Those were both awful decisions if he made them independently. The Glennon signing was bad but that's an excusable mistake, imo. The first two things I mentioned are very glaring errors if it was Pace's call.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:38 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But are you confident that Pace is not that guy? I think that's an important distinction.
If I had to predict the career of Pace here, I would say he is fired after year 4 or 5 and the Bears don't make the playoffs under his watch. The only real way I see that not happening if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is able to bail him out by being an elite quarterback.

Might be right. It all depends on Fox and/or his successor. The talent is there.
That's another problem.

1) Hired Fox.
2) Signed Glennon.

Both are clearly huge mistakes.

Do we trust him to hire a new coach, and to develop a team where (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky can succeed?

I thought Fox preceded him but I might be wrong. But isn't the accepted narrative he was told he had to take Fox? I genuinely don't know.
Pace was hired a week earlier. It's possible he was told that he wouldn't get to select the new coach, but, that's even more concerning if true.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:41 am 
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pittmike wrote:
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Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You keep on acting like last night was possibly a fluke.

I don't think Pace deserves to stay to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. No matter how good or bad (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the rest of the results don't make me confident that he can build around (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky.

But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?

He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.


He wants a new season long argument point this year as his whipping boy Cutler is gone.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:43 am 
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More concerning how? If you say it's because the ownership and Phillips have too big a hand in football operations, I agree it's concerning but a new GM won't change that. If you think it's concerning because it shows a lack of qualification on Pace's part, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's uncommon for a rookie GM to be told who his coach will be. I know the 49ers told Lynch he was getting Shanahan when he was hired.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:43 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
pittmike wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You keep on acting like last night was possibly a fluke.

I don't think Pace deserves to stay to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. No matter how good or bad (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the rest of the results don't make me confident that he can build around (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky.

But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?

He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.


He wants a new season long argument point this year as his whipping boy Cutler is gone.


Snark, Snark, Snark.
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:lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:46 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
More concerning how? If you say it's because the ownership and Phillips have too big a hand in football operations, I agree it's concerning but a new GM won't change that. If you think it's concerning because it shows a level of qualification on Pace's part, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's uncommon for a rookie GM to be told who his coach will be know. I know the 49ers told Lynch he was getting Shanahan when he was hired.

It's concerning if the Bears hired a guy who they didn't think could be trusted to pick his own coach.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:46 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
More concerning how? If you say it's because the ownership and Phillips have too big a hand in football operations, I agree it's concerning but a new GM won't change that. If you think it's concerning because it shows a lack of qualification on Pace's part, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's uncommon for a rookie GM to be told who his coach will be. I know the 49ers told Lynch he was getting Shanahan when he was hired.

Thankfully, when Fox is gone, and Fangio is promoted we won't have to think about this anymore.

Fox is cashing checks at this point. Sounds like dead man walking every time he speaks. That has to have some affect on the team.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:47 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
More concerning how? If you say it's because the ownership and Phillips have too big a hand in football operations, I agree it's concerning but a new GM won't change that. If you think it's concerning because it shows a level of qualification on Pace's part, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's uncommon for a rookie GM to be told who his coach will be know. I know the 49ers told Lynch he was getting Shanahan when he was hired.

It's concerning if the Bears hired a guy who they didn't think could be trusted to pick his own coach.

Sure. I agree. The Bears ownership group is on the short list of most incompetent in all of sports. A new GM isn't changing that though.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:47 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
More concerning how? If you say it's because the ownership and Phillips have too big a hand in football operations, I agree it's concerning but a new GM won't change that. If you think it's concerning because it shows a level of qualification on Pace's part, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's uncommon for a rookie GM to be told who his coach will be know. I know the 49ers told Lynch he was getting Shanahan when he was hired.

It's concerning if the Bears hired a guy who they didn't think could be trusted to pick his own coach.

Doesn't matter. The new coach is already on the staff. Probably agreed upon when he took the D coordinator spot.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:47 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
I'd like clarification on if he was told to keep Fox and/or told to give Cutler one last year to prove himself. Those were both awful decisions if he made them independently. The Glennon signing was bad but that's an excusable mistake, imo. The first two things I mentioned are very glaring errors if it was Pace's call.

I know George and Ted probably forced Fox on him and wouldn't be surprised if they made Pace keep him this year. But the thing is, if you fire Fox and keep Pace, you're already limiting the pool of coaching candidates because the very best guys aren't going to walk into a situation where there's a good chance the GM is fired one season later. And if you let Pace hire a coach but fire him next season, you're in turn limiting the pool of GM candidates if they're not going to be able to bring in their own coach immediately (as when the Bears had to hire someone as incompetent as Emery just because the McCaskeys wanted to keep Lovie around after they fired Angelo).

Pace's players picks don't have me suddenly chomping at the bit to see him be able to hire his own coach or waste a couple more seasons. It sucks for him that Fox was forced on him, but I'm not sure he'd have done much better if he was allowed to hire a head coach himself.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:49 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:50 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
More concerning how? If you say it's because the ownership and Phillips have too big a hand in football operations, I agree it's concerning but a new GM won't change that. If you think it's concerning because it shows a level of qualification on Pace's part, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's uncommon for a rookie GM to be told who his coach will be know. I know the 49ers told Lynch he was getting Shanahan when he was hired.

It's concerning if the Bears hired a guy who they didn't think could be trusted to pick his own coach.

Sure. I agree. The Bears ownership group is on the short list of most incompetent in all of sports. A new GM isn't changing that though.
I'm not sure that is Bears incompetence though in the same way you are using it. If you trust a guy to draft, sign free agents, and make other roster decisions you also need to trust that person to make a head coaching hire. It seems pretty clear the Bears thought he was not only too inexperienced to do it but they also needed to bring in a long time NFL guy like Fox to help him out.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:51 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I'd like clarification on if he was told to keep Fox and/or told to give Cutler one last year to prove himself. Those were both awful decisions if he made them independently. The Glennon signing was bad but that's an excusable mistake, imo. The first two things I mentioned are very glaring errors if it was Pace's call.

I know George and Ted probably forced Fox on him and wouldn't be surprised if they made Pace keep him this year. But the thing is, if you fire Fox and keep Pace, you're already limiting the pool of coaching candidates because the very best guys aren't going to walk into a situation where there's a good chance the GM is fired one season later. And if you let Pace hire a coach but fire him next season, you're in turn limiting the pool of GM candidates if they're not going to be able to bring in their own coach immediately (as when the Bears had to hire someone as incompetent as Emery just because the McCaskeys wanted to keep Lovie around after they fired Angelo).

Pace's players picks don't have me suddenly chomping at the bit to see him be able to hire his own coach or waste a couple more seasons. It sucks for him that Fox was forced on him, but I'm not sure he'd have done much better if he was allowed to hire a head coach himself.

I think Pace got a bit unlucky with Kevin White. Outside of keeping Fox and signing Glennon, I don't see too many huge misfires by Pace. I think he's done fairly good work so far given the limitations he probably has had from ownership. As a GB fan, I would love for them to fire him. It would just reset the rebuild a bit more and his successor will likely be worse.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:52 am 
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It is my recollection that Bears management hired Arcosi and presented Fox to Pace strongly. Pace then heard from Sean Payton that Fox was a good guy so he bought in. Feels like Pace said sure why not as he had no other sure fire thing ready to counter argue with. He will now get one more shot at it.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:52 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I'd like clarification on if he was told to keep Fox and/or told to give Cutler one last year to prove himself. Those were both awful decisions if he made them independently. The Glennon signing was bad but that's an excusable mistake, imo. The first two things I mentioned are very glaring errors if it was Pace's call.

I know George and Ted probably forced Fox on him and wouldn't be surprised if they made Pace keep him this year. But the thing is, if you fire Fox and keep Pace, you're already limiting the pool of coaching candidates because the very best guys aren't going to walk into a situation where there's a good chance the GM is fired one season later. And if you let Pace hire a coach but fire him next season, you're in turn limiting the pool of GM candidates if they're not going to be able to bring in their own coach immediately (as when the Bears had to hire someone as incompetent as Emery just because the McCaskeys wanted to keep Lovie around after they fired Angelo).

Pace's players picks don't have me suddenly chomping at the bit to see him be able to hire his own coach or waste a couple more seasons. It sucks for him that Fox was forced on him, but I'm not sure he'd have done much better if he was allowed to hire a head coach himself.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:53 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
More concerning how? If you say it's because the ownership and Phillips have too big a hand in football operations, I agree it's concerning but a new GM won't change that. If you think it's concerning because it shows a level of qualification on Pace's part, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's uncommon for a rookie GM to be told who his coach will be know. I know the 49ers told Lynch he was getting Shanahan when he was hired.

It's concerning if the Bears hired a guy who they didn't think could be trusted to pick his own coach.

Sure. I agree. The Bears ownership group is on the short list of most incompetent in all of sports. A new GM isn't changing that though.
I'm not sure that is Bears incompetence though in the same way you are using it. If you trust a guy to draft, sign free agents, and make other roster decisions you also need to trust that person to make a head coaching hire. It seems pretty clear the Bears thought he was not only too inexperienced to do it but they also needed to bring in a long time NFL guy like Fox to help him out.

But you just said it yourself right there. If the Bears ownership brought in fox, I don't even need any more evidence of their incompetence. That alone is sufficient. Hiring a GM and not trusting him with actual GM duties is just icing on the incompetence cake.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:53 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:07 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.
I expect to see improvement in year 3, whether it is a player, coach, or GM. I just don't see it on this team.

This is what it comes down to with me too. And I see the (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky pick as just as much about Pace cynically buying himself another year regardless of how embarrassing this season goes just because the potential quarterback of the future MAY be ready to go next year. Everyone was praising his "boldness" for trading up for him and how risky it was, but it's interesting to me how many fans are now arguing for him to actually keep his job after the debacle that was last season and likely repeat this season.

Thinking about this a bit more...

What were Pace's other options? Signing Glennon was bad, but he pretty much had to draft a QB high, or else send that pick and more for Garapollo(sp). Outside of those options, it was guys like Hoyer and McCown. He really didn't have another option outside of spending high draft capital on a QB

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:15 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
What were Pace's other options? Signing Glennon was bad, but he pretty much had to draft a QB high, or else send that pick and more for Garapollo(sp). Outside of those options, it was guys like Hoyer and McCown. He really didn't have another option outside of spending high draft capital on a QB
McCown or Hoyer would have been a better choice.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:18 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
What were Pace's other options? Signing Glennon was bad, but he pretty much had to draft a QB high, or else send that pick and more for Garapollo(sp). Outside of those options, it was guys like Hoyer and McCown. He really didn't have another option outside of spending high draft capital on a QB
McCown or Hoyer would have been a better choice.

I disagree.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:19 am 
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But then you would have made it painfully obvious you were drafting a QB in the first round.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:23 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
What were Pace's other options? Signing Glennon was bad, but he pretty much had to draft a QB high, or else send that pick and more for Garapollo(sp). Outside of those options, it was guys like Hoyer and McCown. He really didn't have another option outside of spending high draft capital on a QB
McCown or Hoyer would have been a better choice.

I disagree.
Hoyer or Barkley literally could have done no worse. They both would have been had for cheaper. Both guys probably would have been find knowing their role as a placeholder, as Hoyer had been a backup before and Barkley wasn't even in the league last year. Hell, Cutler was under contract with a minimal cap hit and they cut him.

Only the Bears could use a high draft pick on a QB and still fuck the QB position up royally.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:24 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
What were Pace's other options? Signing Glennon was bad, but he pretty much had to draft a QB high, or else send that pick and more for Garapollo(sp). Outside of those options, it was guys like Hoyer and McCown. He really didn't have another option outside of spending high draft capital on a QB
McCown or Hoyer would have been a better choice.

Maybe marginally. Negligible difference though if they cut Glennon this summer.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:24 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
But then you would have made it painfully obvious you were drafting a QB in the first round.
Yeah, we sure benefited from that when we traded 4 picks to move up one spot.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:26 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
What were Pace's other options? Signing Glennon was bad, but he pretty much had to draft a QB high, or else send that pick and more for Garapollo(sp). Outside of those options, it was guys like Hoyer and McCown. He really didn't have another option outside of spending high draft capital on a QB
McCown or Hoyer would have been a better choice.

Maybe marginally. Negligible difference though if they cut Glennon this summer.
I think the big problem is that Pace found him to be worth so much money. If he had offered him a reasonable contract I wouldn't be judging it.

In the long run it won't matter but it is yet another questionable decision by a guy with a lot more questionable decisions than good ones.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:26 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
What were Pace's other options? Signing Glennon was bad, but he pretty much had to draft a QB high, or else send that pick and more for Garapollo(sp). Outside of those options, it was guys like Hoyer and McCown. He really didn't have another option outside of spending high draft capital on a QB
McCown or Hoyer would have been a better choice.

I disagree.
Hoyer or Barkley literally could have done no worse. They both would have been had for cheaper. Both guys probably would have been find knowing their role as a placeholder, as Hoyer had been a backup before and Barkley wasn't even in the league last year. Hell, Cutler was under contract with a minimal cap hit and they cut him.

Only the Bears could use a high draft pick on a QB and still fuck the QB position up royally.

I'm not sure I understand what difference the cost makes for a guy that's here for one year...

did anyone actually expect the Bears to be competitive this year? Didn't most expect them to be 0-4 to start the season? I tried to tell you guys last night would be a blowout...they snuck a TD in at the very end, but it was 21-0 with 2 minutes to play and the analysts fell all over themselves to say how back in the game the Bears were. Oy.

I saw Glennon play a few games in Tampa and man, he looked way better and less robotic. I wanted Glennon.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:31 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
But then you would have made it painfully obvious you were drafting a QB in the first round.
Yeah, we sure benefited from that when we traded 4 picks to move up one spot.

And I was maybe the biggest proponent of how terrible that gamble could be going forward.

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