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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:44 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Put Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, Desmond Trufant, and Vic Beasley on the Bears right now. That's a 10-12 win team that is neck and neck with GB or even better.
Well those are 3 all pros which is a little bit better than an impact player.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:44 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Put Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, Desmond Trufant, and Vic Beasley on the Bears right now. That's a 10-12 win team that is neck and neck with GB or even better.
Well those are 3 all pros which is a little bit better than an impact player.

Now we are entering the Brick spin cycle.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:46 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Put Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, Desmond Trufant, and Vic Beasley on the Bears right now. That's a 10-12 win team that is neck and neck with GB or even better.
Well those are 3 all pros which is a little bit better than an impact player.

True, but it answers your question about the difference between the Bears and SB contenders only being 4-5 guys.

Remove Beasley from that statement and it's probably still accurate.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:55 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Put Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, Desmond Trufant, and Vic Beasley on the Bears right now. That's a 10-12 win team that is neck and neck with GB or even better.
Well those are 3 all pros which is a little bit better than an impact player.

True, but it answers your question about the difference between the Bears and SB contenders only being 4-5 guys.

Remove Beasley from that statement and it's probably still accurate.
I don't think it answers it though. If you add three all pro players to any team they probably become above average. That doesn't mean that the Falcons don't have far more depth than the Bears. The Falcons weren't just a contender. They should have won the Super Bowl.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:58 am 
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But that's where our disagreement lies. I think if you add those four guys to the Browns, Jets, Colts, 49ers, and maybe a couple other teams they still don't even make the playoffs. The Bears have a lot of depth. They don't have enough playmakers.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:59 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
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I wouldn't trade TT for Pace but again, TT is responsible for the second most consistently good NFL team since I graduated high school. It's a ridiculously high bar to hold a rookie GM up to.
Its a lot easier for a GM to do this when you have one of the best QBs to ever play the game. Hopefully (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is that guy for the Bears. Not saying he will be as good as Rodgers (possible, but not sure how likely that is), but if he is a top ten QB that you can build a team around than there is no reason for the Bears to have any fewer than 9 wins during Mitch's tenure.

I think you are misreading this thread. I agree with this post, except I would point out that the GM you are talking about is responsible for GB having one of the best QBs ever. You say it like it was an accident or he inherited Rodgers.
No, I'm saying almost every other spot on the roster becomes that much easier to fill when you have the QB set. We can look no further than the last ~8-10 years of Bears and Packers football for the proof of that.

Do you think Josh Bellamy would be as bad as if he if Aaron Rodgers was chucking the rock at him? Certainly I don't think he would be an All Pro on the Packers, but he wouldn't look this bad because Rodgers would be helping to put him in position to make catches.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:00 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I wouldn't trade TT for Pace but again, TT is responsible for the second most consistently good NFL team since I graduated high school. It's a ridiculously high bar to hold a rookie GM up to.
Its a lot easier for a GM to do this when you have one of the best QBs to ever play the game. Hopefully (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is that guy for the Bears. Not saying he will be as good as Rodgers (possible, but not sure how likely that is), but if he is a top ten QB that you can build a team around than there is no reason for the Bears to have any fewer than 9 wins during Mitch's tenure.

I think you are misreading this thread. I agree with this post, except I would point out that the GM you are talking about is responsible for GB having one of the best QBs ever. You say it like it was an accident or he inherited Rodgers.
No, I'm saying almost every other spot on the roster becomes that much easier to fill when you have the QB set. We can look no further than the last ~8-10 years of Bears and Packers football for the proof of that.

Do you think Josh Bellamy would be as bad as if he if Aaron Rodgers was chucking the rock at him? Certainly I don't think he would be an All Pro on the Packers, but he wouldn't look this bad because Rodgers would be helping to put him in position to make catches.

Again, I agree with you. You're not disagreeing with anything I've written here.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:04 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
But that's where our disagreement lies. I think if you add those four guys to the Browns, Jets, Colts, 49ers, and maybe a couple other teams they still don't even make the playoffs. The Bears have a lot of depth. They don't have enough playmakers.
Where is this depth though? As you said, the Packers outclassed the Bears in all facets of the game, and they aren't the first team this year to do it or the last one to do it.

There is a baseline NFL talent that all teams have because of the way the rosters and acquisition rules are setup but there just aren't that many players on this team that would be anything more than "a guy on an NFL team" besides the 6 or 7 that have been mentioned so far with 2 of them being the same position and the other being a quarterback with 0 snaps.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:08 am 
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Depth?

http://chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=108287

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:09 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But that's where our disagreement lies. I think if you add those four guys to the Browns, Jets, Colts, 49ers, and maybe a couple other teams they still don't even make the playoffs. The Bears have a lot of depth. They don't have enough playmakers.
Where is this depth though? As you said, the Packers outclassed the Bears in all facets of the game, and they aren't the first team this year to do it or the last one to do it.

There is a baseline NFL talent that all teams have because of the way the rosters and acquisition rules are setup but there just aren't that many players on this team that would be anything more than "a guy on an NFL team" besides the 6 or 7 that have been mentioned so far with 2 of them being the same position and the other being a quarterback with 0 snaps.

The Chiefs outclassed the Patriots in all phases week 1. Doesn't mean they are better. Ditto with Jacksonville and the Ravens this past week. Can't read too much into one game, but yes, GB did outclass the Bears in almost every way last night. A lot of that was because Glennon simply gave the Bears zero chance to be competitive though.

Howard and Cohen don't play the same position, except for on paper. It's way past time for "pass catching RB" to become it's own position. Devonta Freeman and Tevin Coleman don't play the same position either, same with Gillislee and James White, etc.

I think at this point we are talking in circles, so I'll just go back to saying Pace has done a good enough job thus far to warrant further time to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. You disagree.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:10 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Put Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, Desmond Trufant, and Vic Beasley on the Bears right now. That's a 10-12 win team that is neck and neck with GB or even better.


Every time I see those words now I think of Glennon.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:14 am 
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You keep on acting like last night was possibly a fluke.

I don't think Pace deserves to stay to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. No matter how good or bad (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the rest of the results don't make me confident that he can build around (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:15 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You keep on acting like last night was possibly a fluke.

I don't think Pace deserves to stay to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. No matter how good or bad (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the rest of the results don't make me confident that he can build around (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky.

But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:16 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You keep on acting like last night was possibly a fluke.

I don't think Pace deserves to stay to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. No matter how good or bad (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the rest of the results don't make me confident that he can build around (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky.

Fluke isn't the right word because results like that happen often. But you are right, I am acting like last night was not indicative of how good and bad each team is.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:17 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You keep on acting like last night was possibly a fluke.

I don't think Pace deserves to stay to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. No matter how good or bad (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the rest of the results don't make me confident that he can build around (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky.

But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?

He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:22 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?
The Browns aren't bad because they keep on getting new GMs. They are bad because they keep on making bad choices on players and then bad choices on new GMs.

(Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the future of the Bears. I want a guy who I thinks give us the best chance to be successful building around him. I'm not at all confident that Pace is that guy even though he drafted him.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:24 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?
The Browns aren't bad because they keep on getting new GMs. They are bad because they keep on making bad choices on players and then bad choices on new GMs.

(Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the future of the Bears. I want a guy who I thinks give us the best chance to be successful building around him. I'm not at all confident that Pace is that guy even though he drafted him.

Pace better than Emery?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:25 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.
I expect to see improvement in year 3, whether it is a player, coach, or GM. I just don't see it on this team.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:26 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?
The Browns aren't bad because they keep on getting new GMs. They are bad because they keep on making bad choices on players and then bad choices on new GMs.

(Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the future of the Bears. I want a guy who I thinks give us the best chance to be successful building around him. I'm not at all confident that Pace is that guy even though he drafted him.

But are you confident that Pace is not that guy? I think that's an important distinction.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:27 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?
The Browns aren't bad because they keep on getting new GMs. They are bad because they keep on making bad choices on players and then bad choices on new GMs.

(Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the future of the Bears. I want a guy who I thinks give us the best chance to be successful building around him. I'm not at all confident that Pace is that guy even though he drafted him.

Pace better than Emery?
I'd say about the same. Pace may be slightly better as he at least has a few good draft picks among the bad.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:28 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You keep on acting like last night was possibly a fluke.

I don't think Pace deserves to stay to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. No matter how good or bad (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the rest of the results don't make me confident that he can build around (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky.

But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?

He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.


He wants a new season long argument point this year as his whipping boy Cutler is gone.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:28 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.
I expect to see improvement in year 3, whether it is a player, coach, or GM. I just don't see it on this team.

Thats fair, but I have to keep going back to the coach. I wish there was more clarity on how much power Pace has(same with Hahn and the Sox). Like I said, if he willingly brought Fox back and wants him as coach as this team, I think that's a fireable evaluation right there. Just not sure if that's him or ownership or whatever. I do think Fox is a significantly bigger problem than any lack of talent.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:29 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
But are you confident that Pace is not that guy? I think that's an important distinction.
If I had to predict the career of Pace here, I would say he is fired after year 4 or 5 and the Bears don't make the playoffs under his watch. The only real way I see that not happening if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is able to bail him out by being an elite quarterback.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:29 am 
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pittmike wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You keep on acting like last night was possibly a fluke.

I don't think Pace deserves to stay to see if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is good. No matter how good or bad (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is the rest of the results don't make me confident that he can build around (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky.

But if you think Pace is bad and want him fired then we start this whole cycle over of finding a new coach, finding the right type of players, etc.

Do you want the Bears to go down the Browns path?

He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.


He wants a new season long argument point this year as his whipping boy Cutler is gone.

That's cool with me. Beats the shit out of arguing about Trump and Hillary for the 500th consecutive day.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:30 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But are you confident that Pace is not that guy? I think that's an important distinction.
If I had to predict the career of Pace here, I would say he is fired after year 4 or 5 and the Bears don't make the playoffs under his watch. The only real way I see that not happening if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is able to bail him out by being an elite quarterback.

Might be right. It all depends on Fox and/or his successor. The talent is there.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:30 am 
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pittmike wrote:
He wants a new season long argument point this year as his whipping boy Cutler is gone.
Instead of jumping in like this why not tell me I'm wrong and that Pace is going to turn the Bears into a playoff team next year or the year after?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:31 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But are you confident that Pace is not that guy? I think that's an important distinction.
If I had to predict the career of Pace here, I would say he is fired after year 4 or 5 and the Bears don't make the playoffs under his watch. The only real way I see that not happening if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is able to bail him out by being an elite quarterback.

Might be right. It all depends on Fox and/or his successor. The talent is there.
That's another problem.

1) Hired Fox.
2) Signed Glennon.

Both are clearly huge mistakes.

Do we trust him to hire a new coach, and to develop a team where (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky can succeed?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:32 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
He wants to keep going through GMs until one builds a SB contender from scratch within three years.
I expect to see improvement in year 3, whether it is a player, coach, or GM. I just don't see it on this team.

This is what it comes down to with me too. And I see the (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky pick as just as much about Pace cynically buying himself another year regardless of how embarrassing this season goes just because the potential quarterback of the future MAY be ready to go next year. Everyone was praising his "boldness" for trading up for him and how risky it was, but it's interesting to me how many fans are now arguing for him to actually keep his job after the debacle that was last season and likely repeat this season.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:33 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But are you confident that Pace is not that guy? I think that's an important distinction.
If I had to predict the career of Pace here, I would say he is fired after year 4 or 5 and the Bears don't make the playoffs under his watch. The only real way I see that not happening if (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky is able to bail him out by being an elite quarterback.

Might be right. It all depends on Fox and/or his successor. The talent is there.
That's another problem.

1) Hired Fox.
2) Signed Glennon.

Both are clearly huge mistakes.

Do we trust him to hire a new coach, and to develop a team where (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky can succeed?

I thought Fox preceded him but I might be wrong. But isn't the accepted narrative he was told he had to take Fox? I genuinely don't know.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:33 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
pittmike wrote:
He wants a new season long argument point this year as his whipping boy Cutler is gone.
Instead of jumping in like this why not tell me I'm wrong and that Pace is going to turn the Bears into a playoff team next year or the year after?


It does not matter at this point whether you are right or wrong. Pace certainly has not made all the right moves. I am certain though that he will not be fired now, at the end of the year or until he runs through another coach for at least two years.

So I am saying it is pointless to argue for several pages after a bad game about it. But feel free to continue.

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