Please. For somebody so smart you can be dumb. It's hard to argue with you not because you have great facts, stats and are intelligent but because you over simplify the other argument or discredit the person altogether. I'm not as stupid or simplistic as you'd like to believe but I can't change that. dolphin had a good anology about arguing with you and I give up.

Oversimplify an argument? Discredit the person? Take a look at exactly what you are trying to do. You are simply pretending my thoughts are wrong because you think I hate Jay Cutler.
I never said you were stupid or simplistic. I do not feel that is the case. I don't really analyze why someone is saying something. Instead I analyze what they are saying. I said that you were making a lazy argument that I have some insane hatred of Jay Cutler and it clouds my judgement. If I'm really that biased that it clouds my judgement it should be easy to make me look stupid. You have to admit though that I've been pretty consistent and so far I've been pretty accurate.

I'll fully admit that I'm incredibly argumentative and have spent a ton of time discussing this. I have probably done it much more than I should. That's fine if you give up. It would make things a lot easier if I didn't have to constantly refute the fact that I simply "hate Jay Cutler". I'm certainly unhappy with his play but that's hardly a minority opinion at this point.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

...or not.

First 53 games played for:
Cutler 1098 Completions, 1775 Attempts, 61.86 %, 12,690 Yds, 81 TDs, 63 Ints

Favre 1111 Completions, 1793 Attempts, 61.96%, 12,003 Yds, 82 TDs, 57 Ints

Manning 1127 Completions, 1849 Attempts, 60.95%, 13,711 Yds, 95 TDs, 67 Ints

Grossman 896 Completions, 1660 Attempts, 53.9%, 10,595 Yds, 56 TDs, 62 Ints

Grossman hasn’t even played 53 games so I projected his existing #s out to 53 games for comparison purposes. Not. Even. Close.

You are just trying to draw me back into this thing, aren't you?

Undefeatable, indefatigable...the unsinkable Molly Brown...like the offspring produced between a one night stand with the Terminator and Martha Speaks.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Now that is a good counterargument! Comparing Cutler and Grossman is probably unfair even though he was quite Grossman-like this season.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

How about the number of winning seasons they led their teams to...both Pro & College. Not. Even. Close.

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Knox is the first alternate for returning kicks. Which means that if there is an injury, or if the Vikes make the Super Bowl, you will see Johnny Knox playining in the Pro Bowl.

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Hasn't the standard rallying cry all year been that the WR's suck? Now all of a sudden I say the 4th best WR on the team isn't that good and he's now basically a pro bowler?

This looks like the best evidence I've ever seen that being a pro bowler tells you absolutely nothing.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

huh?

I think I may have slightly misunderstood what Frank was saying. It sounded like he was saying that Knox is good because he's almost a pro bowl player and will be if there is an injury.

In reading it again, he is probably saying that he's simply a good kick returner which is true.

He's still not a very good WR and probably the fourth best team on the team going into next year.

I thought he was saying Knox being a pro bowl alternate means he's a good WR option in the future.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It means that if he is a pro bowler now, albeit as a kick returner, there is at least some talent there and that you shouldn't give up on him after his rookie season.

Nothing it seems will make you happier than to have this trade fail. Maybe you really do want Cutler, Knox, and the Bears to succeed. Maybe you really do, I don't know for sure. What I do know is that you certainly don't act like it when you post about it here.

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Being a pro bowl alternate kick returner has nothing to do with being a WR. Hester was on pace to be the greatest returner in history. Now it seems like many people think Knox is a better option for next year.
If Knox being good matters in this trade then it was a failure. Knox is meaningless in this. It could just as easily have been Marcus Freeman who the Bears picked later in round 5. They could have picked Knox in round 4 and hoped that D.J. Moore was still there. It wouldn't really affect the trade all that much.

If the Bears get any halfway decent WR in free agency Knox will be pushed out by Hester, Bennett, Aromashadu, and the free agent WR. It will be interesting to see if Iglesias is better next year or not after his redshirt year.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Knox is meaningless. I don't care about him one way or another. I just don't think you can write him off after his rookie year.


Skipped right over this to no surprise.

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I did respond to it. I said that Knox being good or bad won't have an effect on the trade.

I want the trade to succeed, Cutler to become a top 5 NFL QB, Knox to become a real pro bowl WR, and the Bears to win multiple Super Bowls. I don't even know why that would be a question. It's also a question I've answered multiple times. I've already promised to admit I was wrong and be happy about it when Cutler lights the league on fire next year. I'll trade being right on a message board for a few playoff wins and be happy about it. I don't know how many other ways I can say this.

The Knox stuff is not me hating on him. It's taking an objective look at him and realizing that at best he's the 4th best WR on the team next year. If Angelo gets even a decent free agent WR he's looking at being 5th. He'll be fighting with Iglesias who had the talent to go 2 rounds higher than Knox and is likely to be given a chance after his Earl Bennett-like redshirt year. I'm not rooting against Knox. He's a good special teams player and he has a place on the team.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

rick you really think orton is around the 12th best? I dont think anyone would take him over any qb in the playoffs except sanchez, or ben, ryan, schaub, eli, cutler. Probably not vince young either. I think this speaks more to the high quality of qb's than it does orton. I also realize he played better than cutler and maybe 1 or 2 others there. I dont have the stats available. But given that list i dont know if he'll ever really crack the top half of starters.

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From Twitter:

be careful charlie weis: one of the bears' fired assistants just told me that jay cutler is a "coach killer".

about 2 hours ago from web
SI_JimTrotter


I'm not sure why he brought Charlie Weis' name up - maybe he thinks he is the next O.C.?

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There is the objective analysis of his ability. He is not around the 12th best then but he doesn't fall that much. There is the analysis of his production which puts him right around the 12th best. If you look at his yards, touchdowns, interceptions, completion percentage you would have a hard time finding more than 12 players who were better. He played like the 12th best QB in the league this year.
Orton doesn't look like a good quarterback but at least this year he produced like one. I'd expect him to do the same next year.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I still hold out hope that a low round WR for a D II (or whatever Division it is) will see a big jump in learning/production between years 1-2 and a huge jump in learning/production between years 2-3.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

i like him and expect him to do well, but again i dont think he outperformed any of the aforementioned except cutler and maybe ryan. Not everything can be measured by stats though. From here on out i expect orton to put up better passing numbers than young but i dont think he's a better player or overall will have the more successful career

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Stats aren't an analysis of ability. They're records of production. Ability doesn't show up in stats, only by the eye test.

Orton was 14th in QB rating, 14th in Comp %, 16th in TDs and 11th in Yards. He's average. His numbers support it and I've seen it in games.

Teams want players with ability. For example. If an NFL team had to choose a quarterback from this list:
Kyle Orton
Carson Palmer
Matt Ryan
Jay Cutler
Matthew Stafford
Who would be they choose? I don't know, but I can't quarantee you who their last choice would be... it would be the highest rated quarterback on this list.

Here was my list of the 11 who were clearly better.
Drew Brees
Brett Favre
Philip Rivers
Aaron Rodgers
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Matt Schaub
Tony Romo
Tom Brady
Kurt Warner
Eli Manning

I had him right there with McNabb and Flacco. It's arguable who played better this year between these guys. Now that I look at it, it probably goes McNabb, Orton, Flacco. McNabb missed a few games so his totals were less but his averages were more.

Next would be Jason Campbell and Carson Palmer. Then Matt Ryan and Jay Cutler both of whom had down years.

There are players that I think over their careers will be better but judging it by last season I have to put him there.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

i dont think an argument can be made that orton was better than mcnabb this year

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This is getting nauseating.

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That was exactly my point. There are players with more ability than him who didn't produce as well as he did last year.

Therefore I called him the 12th best. Now that I think about it McNabb was better so that's 13. Those numbers match that.

What is the relevance of this? Orton was better than all of those players in 2009. That is what we are talking about. I predict that he'll have similar or better production next year and probably outperform a few people on that list.

It wouldn't shock me if going forward that Kyle Orton outperforms Palmer. Stafford and Ryan are young players who look to be stars. Teams would choose them over Favre too but Favre was better this year than them. My thoughts on Cutler are known. He's got star potential.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

When I was looking at production, I failed to factor in that McNabb played in two fewer games. The Kyle Orton defense agency regrets the error.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

The relevance is that just because some of his stats are "better" doesn't mean Orton was better than all of those players. Peyton Manning might win MVP this year, but Ben Roethlisberger's stats are "better". NFL stats are poor tools for absolute comparisons between players... especially when comparing small differences of middle of the pack performers.

According to NFL.com:

From 2008 to 2009:

Denver
Passing offense: down from 3rd to 13th
Total offense: down from 2nd to 15th

Chicago
Passing offense: up from 21st to 17th
Total offense: up from 26th to 23rd

The Bears offense improved. The Broncos offense suffered a major, major setback.

This, despite the fact that the Broncos added a #1 draft pick to their offense, in Knowshon Moreno. And he certainly provided for his team, coming within a few yards of 1000 and plopping in 7 TD's.

I am still searching for answers as to how Eddie Royal regressed to the point where he was the 108th ranked receiver in the NFL (again, according to nfl.com), and did not score as much as a single TD. Last year, he was the 7th ranked receiver (yes, that is not a typo, he dropped from 7th to 108th).

It is pretty damn hard not to pinpoint the main instigator of the offensive collapse. The adoring analysts love the INT stat. Too bad they don't look so much at 3rd down efficiency, red zone offense, and 3-and-outs ratios. Denver suffered miserably in all categories, in stark contrast to last year.

After their stunning 6-0 start, this team was an unmitigated disaster. Un. Mitigate. Ed. Dis. Aster. Anyone still defending them or their QB, man, you gotta give them props, because that's a die-hard fan right there.

During the KC game, no sooner did they pop-up the stat that Orton had completed 7 20+ passes, and the commentators noted that hey, he CAN throw long, did he prove exactly why his coaches never allow him to do such things: he threw nearly back-to-back badly underthrown balls for picks returned for TD's, effectively destroying the game.

I couldn't be happier to not have my team's hopes riding on Mr Orton anymore. Good luck to Denver, or whoever else might have him next year.