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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I do agree with IMU in part that if you are not a religious Jew you do not share in the full vision of Israel.



That's certainly true if you're basing things on some ancient religious texts, but you're touching on the exact difference between Muslims and followers of the other two Abrahamic religions, particularly Judaism which- aside from a handful of nutjobs trying to do a rough rebuild of the Temple Mount and building villages because they believe land was deeded to them by G_d- has become largely secular and cultural rather than truly religious. There are many Jewish atheists. The concept of a "Muslim atheist" cannot and will not exist.


if I'm basing things? You think Israel was founded in secularism?

actually, yes it was founded in secularism.

David Ben Gurion, the 1st PM of Israel? Atheist.
Heck, 4 of Israel's 13 PMs have been atheists. Have we had even 1 atheist US President?


That's not really relevant. We and they have both freedom from religion and freedom of religion.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:28 pm 
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shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I do agree with IMU in part that if you are not a religious Jew you do not share in the full vision of Israel.


what does that even mean, the full vision of Israel? And who are you to decide what that is and which Jews qualify?

You're coming off a little full genius as well.


Fact is you (and IMU) have no clue how Jews feel about Israel.


I don't profess to know but I pose the same question I did to Joe, do you think Israel was founded in secularism?


what does how Israel was founded have to do with the question at hand of how Jews today feel about Israel?


that is not the question at hand. That is the question at hand with you and IMU.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:31 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I do agree with IMU in part that if you are not a religious Jew you do not share in the full vision of Israel.



That's certainly true if you're basing things on some ancient religious texts, but you're touching on the exact difference between Muslims and followers of the other two Abrahamic religions, particularly Judaism which- aside from a handful of nutjobs trying to do a rough rebuild of the Temple Mount and building villages because they believe land was deeded to them by G_d- has become largely secular and cultural rather than truly religious. There are many Jewish atheists. The concept of a "Muslim atheist" cannot and will not exist.


if I'm basing things? You think Israel was founded in secularism?

actually, yes it was founded in secularism.

David Ben Gurion, the 1st PM of Israel? Atheist.
Heck, 4 of Israel's 13 PMs have been atheists. Have we had even 1 atheist US President?


That's not really relevant. We and they have both freedom from religion and freedom of religion.
It's quite relevant though when the founding fathers of the nation were largely atheist. Israel was declared as a Jewish homeland in the idea of the Jews as an ethnic group (which they are) as well as a place where religious Jews could practice.

Polling within Israel time and time again shows the majority to be secular. Just 1 visit to Tel Aviv demonstrates this quite well.

Israel was foremost founded as a place where Jews could escape persecution, which was present in the Arab world as well as the Western World. That trumped any other aspect in the founding of Israel.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
formerlyknownas wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I do agree with IMU in part that if you are not a religious Jew you do not share in the full vision of Israel.



That's certainly true if you're basing things on some ancient religious texts, but you're touching on the exact difference between Muslims and followers of the other two Abrahamic religions, particularly Judaism which- aside from a handful of nutjobs trying to do a rough rebuild of the Temple Mount and building villages because they believe land was deeded to them by G_d- has become largely secular and cultural rather than truly religious. There are many Jewish atheists. The concept of a "Muslim atheist" cannot and will not exist.


if I'm basing things? You think Israel was founded in secularism?

actually, yes it was founded in secularism.

David Ben Gurion, the 1st PM of Israel? Atheist.
Heck, 4 of Israel's 13 PMs have been atheists. Have we had even 1 atheist US President?

Lincoln was (at least an agnostic)

Is Zionism an ethnic or religious movement? Seems to be both.

ethnic, the movement was founded by Herzl, an atheist himself.

In fact, religious Jews were the last to come around on the movement as they believed only G-d (as they would write it) could establish a nation in the Jewish homeland. They believed it sacrilegious for men who were openly atheist to be doing so in the name of the Jewish people.

Most religious Jews didn't come around to the idea until after the Holocaust when it was clear that they needed Israel as a lifeboat for their people.


Religious and non religious alike had the same goal.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:33 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I do agree with IMU in part that if you are not a religious Jew you do not share in the full vision of Israel.


what does that even mean, the full vision of Israel? And who are you to decide what that is and which Jews qualify?

You're coming off a little full genius as well.


Fact is you (and IMU) have no clue how Jews feel about Israel.


I don't profess to know but I pose the same question I did to Joe, do you think Israel was founded in secularism?


what does how Israel was founded have to do with the question at hand of how Jews today feel about Israel?


that is not the question at hand. That is the question at hand with you and IMU.


and you piggybacked on to that discussion with your comments in bold above where you said you agreed with IMU.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Any future arguments on Israel and Jews should be run past Ogie for approval first.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:34 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Yeah, I mean the part about the guy who gave the religion its name.



Well, the guy's name was actually Jesus of Nazareth. I'm pretty sure "Christ" comes from the ancient Greek word that means "anointed".

Seacrest, why do I have to explain this? What do they teach these guys at those Jesuit schools?


Wrong, the guy's name was actually Joshua bar Joseph. I guessed you missed that in shop class at Tech.



The Jesuit pope took the name of the founder of the Franciscans. And he gets his personal spiritual direction from non-Jesuits as well. Does that give you some insight JORR?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I do agree with IMU in part that if you are not a religious Jew you do not share in the full vision of Israel.



That's certainly true if you're basing things on some ancient religious texts, but you're touching on the exact difference between Muslims and followers of the other two Abrahamic religions, particularly Judaism which- aside from a handful of nutjobs trying to do a rough rebuild of the Temple Mount and building villages because they believe land was deeded to them by G_d- has become largely secular and cultural rather than truly religious. There are many Jewish atheists. The concept of a "Muslim atheist" cannot and will not exist.


if I'm basing things? You think Israel was founded in secularism?

actually, yes it was founded in secularism.

David Ben Gurion, the 1st PM of Israel? Atheist.
Heck, 4 of Israel's 13 PMs have been atheists. Have we had even 1 atheist US President?


That's not really relevant. We and they have both freedom from religion and freedom of religion.
It's quite relevant though when the founding fathers of the nation were largely atheist. Israel was declared as a Jewish homeland in the idea of the Jews as an ethnic group (which they are) as well as a place where religious Jews could practice.

Polling within Israel time and time again shows the majority to be secular. Just 1 visit to Tel Aviv demonstrates this quite well.

Israel was foremost founded as a place where Jews could escape persecution, which was present in the Arab world as well as the Western World. That trumped any other aspect in the founding of Israel.
It was nice that all of their Muslim neighbors understood and respected this right from the start too.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:35 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:

Religious and non religious alike had the same goal.

It was the non-religious who drove it. The religious accepted Israel after the fact realizing it was futile to resist it. Plus they found they could not safely practice where they lived so they flocked there after the secular Zionist movement won the state.

While it's a work of fiction, Chaim Potok's "The Chosen" really does a great job on the struggle between the 2 groups. Those who were alive in the 40's can say it was an accurate portrayal. The relationship between Danny and Reuven fractures over this point, and yes things like that did happen within the Jewish community in the 40s as the Orthodox did strongly oppose the idea of humans founding a Jewish state.

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Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:35 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Any future arguments on Israel and Jews should be run past Ogie for approval first.


Agreed. As a member of the tribe I'm more than cool with Ogie being our official spokesperson on the board. And I'll just come in whenever someone needs to be insulted.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I do agree with IMU in part that if you are not a religious Jew you do not share in the full vision of Israel.



That's certainly true if you're basing things on some ancient religious texts, but you're touching on the exact difference between Muslims and followers of the other two Abrahamic religions, particularly Judaism which- aside from a handful of nutjobs trying to do a rough rebuild of the Temple Mount and building villages because they believe land was deeded to them by G_d- has become largely secular and cultural rather than truly religious. There are many Jewish atheists. The concept of a "Muslim atheist" cannot and will not exist.


if I'm basing things? You think Israel was founded in secularism?

actually, yes it was founded in secularism.

David Ben Gurion, the 1st PM of Israel? Atheist.
Heck, 4 of Israel's 13 PMs have been atheists. Have we had even 1 atheist US President?


That's not really relevant. We and they have both freedom from religion and freedom of religion.
It's quite relevant though when the founding fathers of the nation were largely atheist. Israel was declared as a Jewish homeland in the idea of the Jews as an ethnic group (which they are) as well as a place where religious Jews could practice.

Polling within Israel time and time again shows the majority to be secular. Just 1 visit to Tel Aviv demonstrates this quite well.

Israel was foremost founded as a place where Jews could escape persecution, which was present in the Arab world as well as the Western World. That trumped any other aspect in the founding of Israel.


and one visit to Jerusalem demonstrates the opposite

You speak as if the persecution was not entirely intertwined with religion.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:37 pm 
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shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
I do agree with IMU in part that if you are not a religious Jew you do not share in the full vision of Israel.


what does that even mean, the full vision of Israel? And who are you to decide what that is and which Jews qualify?

You're coming off a little full genius as well.


Fact is you (and IMU) have no clue how Jews feel about Israel.


I don't profess to know but I pose the same question I did to Joe, do you think Israel was founded in secularism?


what does how Israel was founded have to do with the question at hand of how Jews today feel about Israel?


that is not the question at hand. That is the question at hand with you and IMU.


and you piggybacked on to that discussion with your comments in bold above where you said you agreed with IMU.


Are you purposely missing the qualifiers?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:40 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:

and one visit to Jerusalem demonstrates the opposite

You speak as if the persecution was not entirely intertwined with religion.


I wonder to what extent the identity of being besieged persuades Israelis to turn (back) to religion? It sounds pretty complicated over there....

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:

Religious and non religious alike had the same goal.

It was the non-religious who drove it. The religious accepted Israel after the fact realizing it was futile to resist it. Plus they found they could not safely practice where they lived so they flocked there after the secular Zionist movement won the state.

While it's a work of fiction, Chaim Potok's "The Chosen" really does a great job on the struggle between the 2 groups. Those who were alive in the 40's can say it was an accurate portrayal. The relationship between Danny and Reuven fractures over this point, and yes things like that did happen within the Jewish community in the 40s as the Orthodox did strongly oppose the idea of humans founding a Jewish state.


Why would they resist something they were happy to see occur?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:44 pm 
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You don't have to be Jewish to realize that some Jews have a deep connection with Israel, and some don't give a shit. Shakes and IMU are both wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:44 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Are you purposely missing the qualifiers?


The "in part" part or the "full vision" part?

Yes, I'm ignoring those ambiguous qualifiers that aren't defined.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:45 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
and one visit to Jerusalem demonstrates the opposite

You speak as if the persecution was not entirely intertwined with religion.

Even Jerusalem is probably only about 1/3rd Orthodox. (the remaining 2/3rds is pretty evenly split as 1/3rd secular and 1/3rd Arab).

Besides, the population of Tel Aviv and it's surrounding suburbs (what would be referred to as the Gush Dan) is several times larger than that of Jerusalem. When Israel votes, the Orthodox parties garner barely more than 10% of the available Knesset seats. As it stands now UTJ and Shas hold 13 of 120 seats.

As a nation, Israel is primarily secular. Nothing can demonstrate that more than life there, and yes I lived there as an agnostic Jew.

As for persecution, the Jewish populations in Germany were largely non-religious and assimilated. They mirrored those of the founders of Zionism, who were also non-religious. The religious Jews primarily lived in Eastern Europe and didn't come under Nazi thumb until the Final Solution was already in motion. Hitler targeted the Jews as an ethnic group, not a religious group as proven by the Nuremberg Laws.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:45 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:45 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:

Religious and non religious alike had the same goal.

It was the non-religious who drove it. The religious accepted Israel after the fact realizing it was futile to resist it. Plus they found they could not safely practice where they lived so they flocked there after the secular Zionist movement won the state.

While it's a work of fiction, Chaim Potok's "The Chosen" really does a great job on the struggle between the 2 groups. Those who were alive in the 40's can say it was an accurate portrayal. The relationship between Danny and Reuven fractures over this point, and yes things like that did happen within the Jewish community in the 40s as the Orthodox did strongly oppose the idea of humans founding a Jewish state.


Why would they resist something they were happy to see occur?

I don't think they were happy to see it occur at the time, thus they largely opposed it. They only embraced Israel after the fact.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:48 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
You don't have to be Jewish to realize that some Jews have a deep connection with Israel, and some don't give a shit. Shakes and IMU are both wrong.


No, IMU claimed that basically all American jews don't care about Israel. As someone who has known more jews than everyone on this board put together (other than my fellow tribe members) I can tell you that the percentage of American jews who care deeply about Israel is probably around 80-90%. Yes, there are some who don't give a shit, but they are in the vast minority. My two brothers don't care, but every other person in my entire extended family sure does.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
and one visit to Jerusalem demonstrates the opposite

You speak as if the persecution was not entirely intertwined with religion.

Even Jerusalem is probably only about 1/3rd Orthodox. (the remaining 2/3rds is pretty evenly split as 1/3rd secular and 1/3rd Arab).

Besides, the population of Tel Aviv and it's surrounding suburbs (what would be referred to as the Gush Dan) is several times larger than that of Jerusalem. When Israel votes, the Orthodox parties garner barely more than 10% of the available Knesset seats. As it stands now UTJ and Shas hold 13 of 120 seats.

As a nation, Israel is primarily secular. Nothing can demonstrate that more than life there, and yes I lived there as an agnostic Jew.

As for persecution, the Jewish populations in Germany were largely non-religious and assimilated. They mirrored those of the founders of Zionism, who were also non-religious. The religious Jews primarily lived in Eastern Europe and didn't come under Nazi thumb until the Final Solution was already in motion. Hitler targeted the Jews as an ethnic group, not a religious group as proven by the Nuremberg Laws.


Orthodox is not the only practice of the religion.

but we are talking about the founding

Do you have any support for your statement that German Jews were largely non religious. One of the primary avenues for Nazis to find Jews was through temple affiliation and records.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:51 pm 
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shakes wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
You don't have to be Jewish to realize that some Jews have a deep connection with Israel, and some don't give a shit. Shakes and IMU are both wrong.


No, IMU claimed that basically all American jews don't care about Israel. As someone who has known more jews than everyone on this board put together (other than my fellow tribe members) I can tell you that the percentage of American jews who care deeply about Israel is probably around 80-90%. Yes, there are some who don't give a shit, but they are in the vast minority. My two brothers don't care, but every other person in my entire extended family sure does.


Come on Shakes, they're just pretending to care....

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm 
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shakes wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
You don't have to be Jewish to realize that some Jews have a deep connection with Israel, and some don't give a shit. Shakes and IMU are both wrong.


No, IMU claimed that basically all American jews don't care about Israel. As someone who has known more jews than everyone on this board put together (other than my fellow tribe members) I can tell you that the percentage of American jews who care deeply about Israel is probably around 80-90%. Yes, there are some who don't give a shit, but they are in the vast minority. My two brothers don't care, but every other person in my entire extended family sure does.

Might be a generational thing. The Jewish guys I know never mention Israel. I'm really only good friends with 2 Jewish guys though, I think, so that doesn't really mean anything.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm 
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shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Are you purposely missing the qualifiers?


The "in part" part or the "full vision" part?

Yes, I'm ignoring those ambiguous qualifiers that aren't defined.


sufficiently non ambiguous for you to recognize them as qualifiers when called on it

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:54 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
shakes wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
You don't have to be Jewish to realize that some Jews have a deep connection with Israel, and some don't give a shit. Shakes and IMU are both wrong.


No, IMU claimed that basically all American jews don't care about Israel. As someone who has known more jews than everyone on this board put together (other than my fellow tribe members) I can tell you that the percentage of American jews who care deeply about Israel is probably around 80-90%. Yes, there are some who don't give a shit, but they are in the vast minority. My two brothers don't care, but every other person in my entire extended family sure does.

Might be a generational thing. The Jewish guys I know never mention Israel. I'm really only good friends with 2 Jewish guys though, I think, so that doesn't really mean anything.
The IMU's and ltg's of the world have also tried to shame Jews who support Israel so it isn't exactly a shock that Jews aren't coming up to them saying "You know what is awesome? Israel".

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:56 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
shakes wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
You don't have to be Jewish to realize that some Jews have a deep connection with Israel, and some don't give a shit. Shakes and IMU are both wrong.


No, IMU claimed that basically all American jews don't care about Israel. As someone who has known more jews than everyone on this board put together (other than my fellow tribe members) I can tell you that the percentage of American jews who care deeply about Israel is probably around 80-90%. Yes, there are some who don't give a shit, but they are in the vast minority. My two brothers don't care, but every other person in my entire extended family sure does.

Might be a generational thing. The Jewish guys I know never mention Israel. I'm really only good friends with 2 Jewish guys though, I think, so that doesn't really mean anything.



It's impossible to separate modern Jewish identity from the Shoah. That being the case, the continuing existence of Israel is a crucial part of the "never again" philosophy for Jews no matter where on the globe they may currently reside.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:05 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Are you purposely missing the qualifiers?


The "in part" part or the "full vision" part?

Yes, I'm ignoring those ambiguous qualifiers that aren't defined.


sufficiently non ambiguous for you to recognize them as qualifiers when called on it


so let me get this straight. You jump into an argument between me and IMU relating to a specific and well defined issue and state that you agree with IMU, but as it later turns out you were actually trying to make a point about something completely unrelated to the argument we were having? And you think I'm the one being obtuse. I think you need to get a few of your relatives over to help you type out your posts cause you're acting extra Pollacky today.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:08 pm 
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shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
shakes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Are you purposely missing the qualifiers?


The "in part" part or the "full vision" part?

Yes, I'm ignoring those ambiguous qualifiers that aren't defined.


sufficiently non ambiguous for you to recognize them as qualifiers when called on it


so let me get this straight. You jump into an argument between me and IMU relating to a specific and well defined issue and state that you agree with IMU, but as it later turns out you were actually trying to make a point about something completely unrelated to the argument we were having? And you think I'm the one being obtuse. I think you need to get a few of your relatives over to help you type out your posts cause you're acting extra Pollacky today.


It's as clear as "agree in part".

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:12 pm 
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So it only took like 6 months for shakes to go from a Trumpet to a snowflake?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:22 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
So it only took like 6 months for shakes to go from a Trumpet to a snowflake?


unless I don't understand the term, snowflakes are the ones supporting Palastine and Trump is the one supporting Israel...so no.

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