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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:11 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
don't jews have some common genes that cause rare diseases and stuff?

yes, we have some specific genetic diseases that are nearly exclusive to us like Tay-Sachs and we are also more prone to several other disorders (like Crohns, Ulcerative Colitis, colon cancer, etc.)

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:13 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
don't jews have some common genes that cause rare diseases and stuff?

Bernstein wrote:
ACL. ICE. HOSPITAL.


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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:13 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
don't jews have some common genes that cause rare diseases and stuff?

Bernstein wrote:
ACL. ICE. HOSPITAL.

:lol:

Also, as a Jew I would like to disown Dan Bernstein.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:18 am 
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long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.



Yes it does if you are questioning someone's "legitimacy" Jorr Brick and Ogie have all questioned the use of the term Palestinian. To me that makes no sense because they are still Arabs. Native born Arabs have no right to the land but Jewish people of Eastern European descent do?


Israel isn't trying to "kick out" Arabs. And all but the most religious wackos understand that it will become untenable to maintain a Jewish state while also maintaining democratic values. Israel wants a two state solution. Sadly, there is none to be had. "From the river to the sea..."

The maintenance of a permanent refugee class by the U.N. and Arab states is not the fault of Israel.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:19 am 
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:lol: I was going to say the Jewish genetic fault was Bernsteinish Assholary.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:25 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.



Yes it does if you are questioning someone's "legitimacy" Jorr Brick and Ogie have all questioned the use of the term Palestinian. To me that makes no sense because they are still Arabs. Native born Arabs have no right to the land but Jewish people of Eastern European descent do?


Israel isn't trying to "kick out" Arabs. And all but the most religious wackos understand that it will become untenable to maintain a Jewish state while also maintaining democratic values. Israel wants a two state solution. Sadly, there is none to be had. "From the river to the sea..."

The maintenance of a permanent refugee class by the U.N. and Arab states is not the fault of Israel.


Netanyahu doesn't want one.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:27 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.



Yes it does if you are questioning someone's "legitimacy" Jorr Brick and Ogie have all questioned the use of the term Palestinian. To me that makes no sense because they are still Arabs. Native born Arabs have no right to the land but Jewish people of Eastern European descent do?

I question if they are a different ethnicity than the other Arabs of the levant. It's a fair question as their argument for independent statehood rests upon the acceptance that they are an independent ethnic group from the bordering Arab states. Otherwise, why not have them make their state in Jordan? Those who call themselves Palestinians make up the majority of the population in Jordan, so should Jordan not be the Palestinian State? After all, it was part of the original Palestinian Mandate until Britain turned it over to create Jordan.

I have already pointed out what the criteria is for determining if a group of people are an independent ethnicity. The Jewish people most certainly fall within that category. While one can convert to Judaism the religion, one still does not become a Jew by ethnicity. Just as one cannot convert to become Polish or French, but one can convert to become a Catholic.

Judaism can both be a religion and the Jewish people can also be an ethnic group. If you argue contrary, you are arguing against the facts of the matter.




Of course one does not become a Jew by ethnicity. The only way one can become a Jew is by converting to Judaism. A person can be East Asian convert to Judaism and have more of an entitlement to the land than a Native born Arab. Jorr is being hypocritical on this issue also. He is one of the proponents of outlawing Muslim refugees yet he is perfectly comfortable with refugees from other nations and continents descending upon Israel and possessing rights forbidden to Palestinians.


While we are at it Zionism is merely a contrived term that was created by a non Middle Easterner.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:28 am 
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pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.


Am I all up in your phone's auto-correct? But actually you were right, the thing CH responded with was enlightening.


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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:32 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.


Am I all up in your phone's auto-correct? But actually you were right, the thing CH responded with was enlightening.


He called you me in one of his posts from a few days ago. The initial game is not his friend apparently. Maybe we can discuss Lincoln and his ambivalence to slavery again. If I provide one of my many sources maybe that will provide clarity for a Pittmike on exactly Who's who. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:33 am 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.



Yes it does if you are questioning someone's "legitimacy" Jorr Brick and Ogie have all questioned the use of the term Palestinian. To me that makes no sense because they are still Arabs. Native born Arabs have no right to the land but Jewish people of Eastern European descent do?


Israel isn't trying to "kick out" Arabs. And all but the most religious wackos understand that it will become untenable to maintain a Jewish state while also maintaining democratic values. Israel wants a two state solution. Sadly, there is none to be had. "From the river to the sea..."

The maintenance of a permanent refugee class by the U.N. and Arab states is not the fault of Israel.


Netanyahu doesn't want one.


Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated for merely attempting to broach the subject.

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Last edited by long time guy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:34 am 
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long time guy wrote:



Of course one does not become a Jew by ethnicity. The only way one can become a Jew is by converting to Judaism. A person can be East Asian convert to Judaism and be have more of an entitlement to the land than a Native born Arab. Jorr is being hypocritical on this issue also. He is one of the proponents of outlawing Muslim refugees yet he is perfectly comfortable with refugees from other nations and continents descending upon Israel and possessing rights forbidden to Palestinians.


While we are at it Zionism is merely a contrived term that was created by a non Middle Easterner.

The Jewish people as as an ethnicity are separate from Judaism as a religion.

A religion is a set of beliefs and one must follow them in order to be part of a religion.

However, an ethnicity is a group with a common and distinctive origin, language, culture, genetics, and customs. If you are born Jewish and become an atheist, you are still Jewish by ethnicity. If you are born Baptist and become an atheist, then you are no longer a Baptist as it is a set of beliefs and not an independent ethnicity.

Look no further than the Jews who founded and took up leadership in early Israel. Most of them were atheists or agnostics. Even David Ben Gurion was an avowed atheist. He was still Jewish though because he belonged to the Jewish ethnic group and shared the common ethnicity with a Chabad Rabbi.

This is a basic academic concept and the fact that you cannot grasp it makes me question if your claimed credentials are even real.

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Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:35 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.


Am I all up in your phone's auto-correct? But actually you were right, the thing CH responded with was enlightening.


:lol: No but in the past couple days I have mixed up you and LTG in different directions on vastly different subjects. Sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:38 am 
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Nas wrote:
Netanyahu doesn't want one.

False, he called for one in the Bar Ilan speech and made a serious offer for one during the last direct negotiations. The Palestinians walked away without so much as a counter offer. This is what they typically do as they cannot and will not agree to peace with Israel as their long term goal is always "from the river to the sea." Anyone who followed the 2000's negotiations would recognize this fact.

Israel has time and time again put forth fair and just offers for a Palestinian state. Each time, the Arabs walked away from the table.

As the great statesman Abba Eban once said:

"The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:39 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:



Of course one does not become a Jew by ethnicity. The only way one can become a Jew is by converting to Judaism. A person can be East Asian convert to Judaism and be have more of an entitlement to the land than a Native born Arab. Jorr is being hypocritical on this issue also. He is one of the proponents of outlawing Muslim refugees yet he is perfectly comfortable with refugees from other nations and continents descending upon Israel and possessing rights forbidden to Palestinians.


While we are at it Zionism is merely a contrived term that was created by a non Middle Easterner.

The Jewish people as as an ethnicity are separate from Judaism as a religion.

A religion is a set of beliefs and one must follow them in order to be part of a religion.

However, an ethnicity is a group with a common and distinctive origin, language, culture, genetics, and customs. If you are born Jewish and become an atheist, you are still Jewish by ethnicity. If you are born Baptist and become an atheist, then you are no longer a Baptist as Catholicism is a set of beliefs and not an dependent ethnicity.

Look no further than the Jews who founded and took up leadership in early Israel. Most of them were atheists or agnostics. Even David Ben Gurion was an avowed atheist. He was still Jewish though because he belonged to the Jewish ethnic group and shared the common ethnicity with a Chabad Rabbi.

This is a basic academic concept and the fact that you cannot grasp it makes me question if your claimed credentials are even real.



Ok so why are Jewish people with no ties to the "ancestral homeland" entitled to rights that Native born Palestinians aren't?

Israel makes no distinction between religious and secular jews. There also isn't a distinction between those born in the Middle East and those born outside of the Middle East. IF you are a Jew and you wish to immigrate to Israel you can regardless if you are from the region or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:41 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.


Am I all up in your phone's auto-correct? But actually you were right, the thing CH responded with was enlightening.


He called you me in one of his posts from a few days ago. The initial game is not his friend apparently. Maybe we can discuss Lincoln and his ambivalence to slavery again. If I provide one of my many sources maybe that will provide clarity for a Pittmike on exactly Who's who. :lol:


:lol: You're alright, JLTG.


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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:42 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:



Of course one does not become a Jew by ethnicity. The only way one can become a Jew is by converting to Judaism. A person can be East Asian convert to Judaism and be have more of an entitlement to the land than a Native born Arab. Jorr is being hypocritical on this issue also. He is one of the proponents of outlawing Muslim refugees yet he is perfectly comfortable with refugees from other nations and continents descending upon Israel and possessing rights forbidden to Palestinians.


While we are at it Zionism is merely a contrived term that was created by a non Middle Easterner.

The Jewish people as as an ethnicity are separate from Judaism as a religion.

A religion is a set of beliefs and one must follow them in order to be part of a religion.

However, an ethnicity is a group with a common and distinctive origin, language, culture, genetics, and customs. If you are born Jewish and become an atheist, you are still Jewish by ethnicity. If you are born Baptist and become an atheist, then you are no longer a Baptist as Catholicism is a set of beliefs and not an dependent ethnicity.

Look no further than the Jews who founded and took up leadership in early Israel. Most of them were atheists or agnostics. Even David Ben Gurion was an avowed atheist. He was still Jewish though because he belonged to the Jewish ethnic group and shared the common ethnicity with a Chabad Rabbi.

This is a basic academic concept and the fact that you cannot grasp it makes me question if your claimed credentials are even real.



Ok so why are Jewish people with no ties to the "ancestral homeland" entitled to rights that Native born Palestinians aren't?

The Palestinians were offered their chance to establish a state at several junctures either via partition or peace deal. By walking away, starting (and losing) several wars, they have routinely forfeited their rights.

They can choose to live at peace side-by-side with the Jewish state or they can continue to wallow in the misery of their own making.

Once again, you are ignoring the fact that Jews have maintained a tie to their ancestral homeland for 3200 years. You love to ignore that point because it is a fact which you cannot refute.

----

I have to get some work done so I'll reply to other stuff later

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:47 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Nas wrote:
Netanyahu doesn't want one.

False, he called for one in the Bar Ilan speech and made a serious offer for one during the last direct negotiations. The Palestinians walked away without so much as a counter offer. This is what they typically do as they cannot and will not agree to peace with Israel as their long term goal is always "from the river to the sea." Anyone who followed the 2000's negotiations would recognize this fact.

Israel has time and time again put forth fair and just offers for a Palestinian state. Each time, the Arabs walked away from the table.

As the great statesman Abba Eban once said:

"The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."


I don't want to offend you but I stand by my comment about Netanyahu.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:48 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:



Of course one does not become a Jew by ethnicity. The only way one can become a Jew is by converting to Judaism. A person can be East Asian convert to Judaism and be have more of an entitlement to the land than a Native born Arab. Jorr is being hypocritical on this issue also. He is one of the proponents of outlawing Muslim refugees yet he is perfectly comfortable with refugees from other nations and continents descending upon Israel and possessing rights forbidden to Palestinians.


While we are at it Zionism is merely a contrived term that was created by a non Middle Easterner.

The Jewish people as as an ethnicity are separate from Judaism as a religion.

A religion is a set of beliefs and one must follow them in order to be part of a religion.

However, an ethnicity is a group with a common and distinctive origin, language, culture, genetics, and customs. If you are born Jewish and become an atheist, you are still Jewish by ethnicity. If you are born Baptist and become an atheist, then you are no longer a Baptist as Catholicism is a set of beliefs and not an dependent ethnicity.

Look no further than the Jews who founded and took up leadership in early Israel. Most of them were atheists or agnostics. Even David Ben Gurion was an avowed atheist. He was still Jewish though because he belonged to the Jewish ethnic group and shared the common ethnicity with a Chabad Rabbi.

This is a basic academic concept and the fact that you cannot grasp it makes me question if your claimed credentials are even real.



Ok so why are Jewish people with no ties to the "ancestral homeland" entitled to rights that Native born Palestinians aren't?

The Palestinians were offered their chance to establish a state at several junctures either via partition or peace deal. By walking away, starting (and losing) several wars, they have routinely forfeited their rights.

They can choose to live at peace side-by-side with the Jewish state or they can continue to wallow in the misery of their own making.

Once again, you are ignoring the fact that Jews have maintained a tie to their ancestral homeland for 3200 years. You love to ignore that point because it is a fact which you cannot refute.

----

I have to get some work done so I'll reply to other stuff later


Ok. Cool. In closing for now I never stated that Jews were completely removed I have consistently stated that they constituted a minority in the region. Of course they have been in the region but the overwhelming portion of the area was Arab.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:22 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Jews weren't the majority for almost two thousand years, and they weren't forcibly removed. They lost wars. They weren't suddenly shipped to Europe in shipping containers.
Jews were the majority in Jerusalem in the last two thousand years and well before Israel existed.


False. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... _Jerusalem

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You also want to avoid the "lost wars" part of it as Israel can point to the scoreboard of the past 150 years or so to lay claim to the area.


Would you be okay with taking Western aid to Israel out of it and seeing what gets sorted?

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Anyway, who cares? Two state solution.
If you truly think a two state solution is fair why are you and others fighting so hard against the very concept of Israel? The biggest impediment to the two state solution is the fight against Israel's right to exist.


I'm not fighting against Israel's right to exist. I've been on this topic for years now...you should know my stance extremely well by now since you discuss it with me each and every time. Israel is there now. It may not have been the right place for it, but it is a state that exists. And Palestine should be a state that exists, with East Jerusalem as its capitol. Pre Six Day War borders for each country. Hamas has just rescinded control of the Gaza Strip and disbanded their shadow government...Abbas and Fatah are back in control of the entirety of Palestine. Netanyahu should immediately be resuming talks but he will not because he does not believe in Palestine's right to exist.

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Last edited by IMU on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:25 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.



Yes it does if you are questioning someone's "legitimacy" Jorr Brick and Ogie have all questioned the use of the term Palestinian. To me that makes no sense because they are still Arabs. Native born Arabs have no right to the land but Jewish people of Eastern European descent do?

I question if they are a different ethnicity than the other Arabs of the levant. It's a fair question as their argument for independent statehood rests upon the acceptance that they are an independent ethnic group from the bordering Arab states. Otherwise, why not have them make their state in Jordan? Those who call themselves Palestinians make up the majority of the population in Jordan, so should Jordan not be the Palestinian State? After all, it was part of the original Palestinian Mandate until Britain turned it over to create Jordan.

I have already pointed out what the criteria is for determining if a group of people are an independent ethnicity. The Jewish people most certainly fall within that category. While one can convert to Judaism the religion, one still does not become a Jew by ethnicity. Just as one cannot convert to become Polish or French, but one can convert to become a Catholic.

Judaism can both be a religion and the Jewish people can also be an ethnic group. If you argue contrary, you are arguing against the facts of the matter.




Of course one does not become a Jew by ethnicity. The only way one can become a Jew is by converting to Judaism. A person can be East Asian convert to Judaism and have more of an entitlement to the land than a Native born Arab. Jorr is being hypocritical on this issue also. He is one of the proponents of outlawing Muslim refugees yet he is perfectly comfortable with refugees from other nations and continents descending upon Israel and possessing rights forbidden to Palestinians.


While we are at it Zionism is merely a contrived term that was created by a non Middle Easterner.

You got mad when people said you had anti-Semitic views but you are also using a lot of anti-Semitic talking points designed to delegitimize the Jewish people.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:26 am 
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Killer V wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out if Hillary is Jewish?


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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:29 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Why was it called the Palestine Post? Because before 1948 there was no such thing as a Palestinian person. Someone who called himself a Palestinian would've been a Jew living in Israel. The Arabs were simply called the Arabs as they were not a distinct and separate people from the other Arabs in the region.

This is false. There were Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs, until the Jews decided to be called Israelis, and Palestinian Arabs could be shortened to Palestinians. The term Palestinian has been used for thousands of years and the only thing that separates the people is religion and culture. And that is enough to necessitate two sovereign states.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:30 am 
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IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Jews weren't the majority for almost two thousand years, and they weren't forcibly removed. They lost wars. They weren't suddenly shipped to Europe in shipping containers.
Jews were the majority in Jerusalem in the last two thousand years and well before Israel existed.


False. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... _Jerusalem

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You also want to avoid the "lost wars" part of it as Israel can point to the scoreboard of the past 150 years or so to lay claim to the area.


Would you be okay with taking Western aid to Israel out of it and seeing what gets sorted?

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Anyway, who cares? Two state solution.
If you truly think a two state solution is fair why are you and others fighting so hard against the very concept of Israel? The biggest impediment to the two state solution is the fight against Israel's right to exist.


I'm not fighting against Israel's right to exist. I've been on this topic for years now...you should know my stance extremely well by now since you discuss it with me each and every time. Israel is there now. It may not have been the right place for it, but it is a state that exists. And Palestine should be a state that exists, with East Jerusalem as its capitol. Pre Six Day War borders for each country. Hamas has just rescinded control of the Gaza Strip and disbanded their shadow government...Abbas and Fatah are back in control of the entirety of Palestine. Netanyahu should immediately be resuming talks but he will not because he does not believe in Palestine's right to exist.[/quote]
Your link says 1844 was the start of Jewish majority.

AS for us stopping foreign aid that would be fine as long as every other country does too to both sides. Who wins?

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:38 am 
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IMU wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Why was it called the Palestine Post? Because before 1948 there was no such thing as a Palestinian person. Someone who called himself a Palestinian would've been a Jew living in Israel. The Arabs were simply called the Arabs as they were not a distinct and separate people from the other Arabs in the region.

This is false. There were Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs, until the Jews decided to be called Israelis, and Palestinian Arabs could be shortened to Palestinians. The term Palestinian has been used for thousands of years and the only thing that separates the people is religion and culture. And that is enough to necessitate two sovereign states.


Yep. Didn't want to call him on this false claim because it would have taken it into another field but the notion that the term Palestinian began in the 20th century is almost disqualifying.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:41 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
It was a while back that I had asked similar questions albeit just to satisfy my curiosity. I did not really understand why people always say they are Jewish rather than German, Polish, Russian, Israeli etc. CH replied to me that it was largely due to there only being a couple strains of Jewish types in total and mainly the ones in American actually are almost all of a certain type from Europe.

I am sure I butchered that but maybe Ch can again lay that out and it may help JLN here? The only other thing I thing he is trying to get at is converts and that makes no sense to me in this discussion.



Yes it does if you are questioning someone's "legitimacy" Jorr Brick and Ogie have all questioned the use of the term Palestinian. To me that makes no sense because they are still Arabs. Native born Arabs have no right to the land but Jewish people of Eastern European descent do?

I question if they are a different ethnicity than the other Arabs of the levant. It's a fair question as their argument for independent statehood rests upon the acceptance that they are an independent ethnic group from the bordering Arab states. Otherwise, why not have them make their state in Jordan? Those who call themselves Palestinians make up the majority of the population in Jordan, so should Jordan not be the Palestinian State? After all, it was part of the original Palestinian Mandate until Britain turned it over to create Jordan.

I have already pointed out what the criteria is for determining if a group of people are an independent ethnicity. The Jewish people most certainly fall within that category. While one can convert to Judaism the religion, one still does not become a Jew by ethnicity. Just as one cannot convert to become Polish or French, but one can convert to become a Catholic.

Judaism can both be a religion and the Jewish people can also be an ethnic group. If you argue contrary, you are arguing against the facts of the matter.




Of course one does not become a Jew by ethnicity. The only way one can become a Jew is by converting to Judaism. A person can be East Asian convert to Judaism and have more of an entitlement to the land than a Native born Arab. Jorr is being hypocritical on this issue also. He is one of the proponents of outlawing Muslim refugees yet he is perfectly comfortable with refugees from other nations and continents descending upon Israel and possessing rights forbidden to Palestinians.


While we are at it Zionism is merely a contrived term that was created by a non Middle Easterner.

You got mad when people said you had anti-Semitic views but you are also using a lot of anti-Semitic talking points designed to delegitimize the Jewish people.


Of the people in this discussion you provide the least amount of insight. I'm sayint this with all due respect. YOu cling to the Anti Semitism charge because you have nothing to add. My point is clear and also relevant. you have consistently along with others attempted to delegitimze the Palestinians first by claiming that it is a made up term and continuously stating that they were never a country. You then made the charge that being indigenous matters not because when someone else wanted to claim the land then the land they shall claim.

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Last edited by long time guy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:41 am 
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Nas wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Nas wrote:
Netanyahu doesn't want one.

False, he called for one in the Bar Ilan speech and made a serious offer for one during the last direct negotiations. The Palestinians walked away without so much as a counter offer. This is what they typically do as they cannot and will not agree to peace with Israel as their long term goal is always "from the river to the sea." Anyone who followed the 2000's negotiations would recognize this fact.

Israel has time and time again put forth fair and just offers for a Palestinian state. Each time, the Arabs walked away from the table.

As the great statesman Abba Eban once said:

"The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."


I don't want to offend you but I stand by my comment about Netanyahu.

I'd like more info on the last direct negotiations, Ogie.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:43 am 
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does anyone think there's a large population that are converting to being a Jew so they can live somewhere in this area?

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:11 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Of the people in this discussion you provide the least amount of insight. I'm sayint this with all due respect.
:lol:
long time guy wrote:
YOu cling to the Anti Semitism charge because you have nothing to add.
No, it's because you literally are using many talking points used by proud anti-Semetic people to delegitimize the Jewish people as a whole.
long time guy wrote:
My point is clear and also relevant. you have consistently along with others attempted to delegitimze the Palestinians first by claiming that it is a made up term and continuously stating that they were never a country. You then made the charge that being indigenous matters not because when someone else wanted to claim the land then the land they shall claim.
It's just a fact they were never a country and they never wanted to be a country. I don't get your last part. The issue here is that the history of that region goes back thousands of years with Jews being a strong, if not always a majority, presence there for most of recorded history and the reasons why they weren't the majority were because of being chased out and not because they chose to move away. My grandparents were forced to flee in a similar fashion from their homeland. Did they suddenly lose that right to their homeland? Now, if your answer is like IMU which is "You lost to another force" then I accept that and then Israel gets to do what it needs to do to secure their homeland back that they lost by war.

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Last edited by Brick on Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:14 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
does anyone think there's a large population that are converting to being a Jew so they can live somewhere in this area?

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:29 am 
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