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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
KDdidit wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Can who ever invited ZephMarshack to join the board step up apologize and make him go away?


Yeah, we need less people who can make their own intelligent points and more people who just cheerlead for others because they can't make their own.

Damn, KD throwing haymakers.


When KD, DB and Zeph are on the same side.....

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:35 pm 
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KDdidit wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Can who ever invited ZephMarshack to join the board step up apologize and make him go away?


Yeah, we need less people who can make their own intelligent points and more people who just cheerlead for others because they can't make their own.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:40 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Can who ever invited ZephMarshack to join the board step up apologize and make him go away?

Don't do that mike. I disagree with Zeph as much as anyone here but he's one of the best posters here, and I would think that is pretty undeniable.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:51 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
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Don Tiny wrote:
Where can one hire the Palestinians to bomb this thread?



I'm done with it. I've said my peace.

Isn't it "piece"? Like "I've said my piece of this conversation" or "what piece of land are we gonna stuff these Jews into".

I believe traditionally that is correct but language is modified all the time and I think all LTG is saying is give peace a chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:51 am 
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tommy wrote:
Hi Zeph--this is on a college campus, though. The issue is not so much free speech (as a general value and a possible law, at least in Canada) as much as how ideology blinds us into thinking that we are right and how that gets in the way of discussion and turns us into bullies. That's clearly what happened here, no? It really, really can't happen on college campuses. The goal is growth (not profit, like the NFL).


One would certainly think so. But it seems that at some point universities have begun treating students as customers.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:15 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Can who ever invited ZephMarshack to join the board step up apologize and make him go away?

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:18 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
One would certainly think so. But it seems that at some point universities have begun treating students as customers.

Freddie deBoer has basically nuked his entire online presence, so I can't find his blog post about Purdue spending tons of money on a student center/mall, but this one is good enough: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/maga ... y-inc.html

Quote:
No, I’m talking about the way universities operate, every day, more and more like corporations. As Benjamin Ginsberg details in his 2011 book, ‘‘The Fall of the Faculty: The Rise of the All-Administrative University and Why It Matters,’’ a constantly expanding layer of university administrative jobs now exists at an increasing remove from the actual academic enterprise. It’s not unheard-of for colleges now to employ more senior administrators than professors. There are, of course, essential functions that many university administrators perform, but such an imbalance is absurd — try imagining a high school with more vice principals than teachers. This legion of bureaucrats enables a world of pitiless surveillance; no segment of campus life, no matter how small, does not have some administrator who worries about it. Piece by piece, every corner of the average campus is being slowly made congruent with a single, totalizing vision. The rise of endless brushed-metal-and-glass buildings at Purdue represents the aesthetic dimension of this ideology. Bent into place by a small army of apparatchiks, the contemporary American college is slowly becoming as meticulously art-directed and branded as a J. Crew catalog. Like Niketown or Disneyworld, your average college campus now leaves the distinct impression of a one-party state.

Which is why, whenever the conversation inevitably turns to campus political culture these days, I think of the garden. It has become fashionable to argue that leftist language policing has mingled with the service vision of higher education — where students are the customers and professors their servants — to curtail the free expression of ideas that most see as the natural purpose of higher education. Minor campus incidents, magnified through the powerful lens of the Internet, become the focus of vast, binary arguments, picked apart ‘‘Rashomon’’-style by interested parties.


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Rather than painting student activists as censors — trying to dictate who has the right to say what and when — we should instead see them as trapped in a corporate architecture of managing offense. Have you ever been to corporate sexual harassment training? If you have, you may have been struck by how little such events have to do with preventing sexual harassment as a matter of moral necessity and how much they have to do with protecting whatever institution is mandating it. Of course, sexual harassment is a real and vexing problem, not merely on campus but in all kinds of organizations, and the urge to oppose it through policy is a noble one. But corporate entities serve corporate interests, not those of the individuals within them, and so these efforts are often designed to spare the institutions from legal liability rather than protect the individuals who would be harmed by sexual harassment. Indeed, this is the very lifeblood of corporatism: creating systems and procedures that sacrifice the needs of humans to the needs of institutions.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:25 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
One would certainly think so. But it seems that at some point universities have begun treating students as customers.

Freddie deBoer has basically nuked his entire online presence, so I can't find his blog post about Purdue spending tons of money on a student center/mall, but this one is good enough: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/maga ... y-inc.html


"I am on campus but not of it, an itinerant visitor."

I've heard Victor Davis Hanson say almost exactly the same thing. The politics and worldviews of deBoer and Hanson are strikingly different, but it's interesting that both of them feel so similar about how they fit on campus.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:37 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Can who ever invited ZephMarshack to join the board step up apologize and make him go away?

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PittMike should go back to scientist school. He would love what college has become now.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:49 am 
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Douchebag wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Can who ever invited ZephMarshack to join the board step up apologize and make him go away?

Image

PittMike should go back to scientist school. He would love what college has become now.


Or I could look around at work every day douche.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:00 pm 
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I wouldn't look around at everyday douche. Especially at work.

HR might have an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
One would certainly think so. But it seems that at some point universities have begun treating students as customers.

Freddie deBoer has basically nuked his entire online presence, so I can't find his blog post about Purdue spending tons of money on a student center/mall, but this one is good enough: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/maga ... y-inc.html

Quote:
No, I’m talking about the way universities operate, every day, more and more like corporations. As Benjamin Ginsberg details in his 2011 book, ‘‘The Fall of the Faculty: The Rise of the All-Administrative University and Why It Matters,’’ a constantly expanding layer of university administrative jobs now exists at an increasing remove from the actual academic enterprise. It’s not unheard-of for colleges now to employ more senior administrators than professors.


I could see all of this happening (as could everyone else) when admins began defending, in the late 90s, posh dorms and waterparks in student centers by saying, "Today's students are picky consumers." They meant that as a compliment.

Basically, I just agree with JORR and CH. No need to hash this out.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:43 am 
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Ms. Shepherd doesn't want it. SHE doesn't need to labeled: "Still worthy of being a 'Laurier Person.'" What the hell is that? What is your motto here? "People, promote Marxism and Postmodernism, save your hide" -- anything short of that we're gonna burn you at the stake? Well, ladies and gentlemen, when the shit hits the fan some people run and some people stay. Here's Lindsay facing the fire; and there's Professor Rambukkana hidin' in big Daddy's pocket. And what are you doin'? You're gonna reward Rambukkana and destroy Lindsay.

No, I'm just gettin' warmed up. I don't know who went to this place, Gordon Downie, Gordon Lightfoot, Gordon Sinclair -- whoever. Their spirit is dead -- if they ever had one -- it's gone. You're building a rat ship here. A vessel for sea goin' snitches. And if you think your preparing these minnows for The real world you better think again. Because I say you are killing the very spirit this institution proclaims it instills! What a sham. What kind of a show are you people puttin' on here today. I mean, the only class in this act is sittin' next to me. And I'm here to tell ya this GIRL's soul is intact. It's non-negotitable. You know how I know? Someone here -- and I'm not gonna say who -- offered to buy it. Only Lindsay here wasn't sellin'.

Outta order? I'll show you outta order! You don't know what outta order is, Ms. MacLatchy! I'd show you but I'm too old; I'm too tired; I'm too fuckin' blind. If I were the man I was five years ago I'd take a FLAME-THROWER to this place! Outta order. Who the hell you think you're talkin' to? I've been around, you know? There was a time I could see. And I have seen humans like these, younger than these, their arms torn out, their legs ripped off. But there isn't nothin' like the sight of an amputated spirit; there is no prosthetic for that. You think you're merely sendin' this splendid foot-soldier back home to Vancouver with HER tail between HER legs, but I say you are executin' HER SOUL!! And why?! Because she's not a Laurier person! Laurier people, ya hurt this GIRL, you're going to be Laurier Bums, the lot of ya. And Professor Pimlott, Adria Joel, wherever you are out there, FUCK YOU, too!

I'm not finished! As I came in here, I heard those words, "cradle of leadership." Well, when the bow breaks, the cradle will fall. And it has fallen here; it has fallen. Makers of men; creators of leaders; be careful what kind of leaders you're producin' here. I don't know if Lindsay's surreptitious recording here today is right or wrong. I'm not a judge or jury. But I can tell you this: SHE won't sell anybody out to buy HER future!! And that, my friends, is called integrity! That's called courage! Now that's the stuff leaders should be made of. Now I have come to the crossroads in my life. I always knew what the right path was. Without exception, I knew. But I never took it. You know why? It was too damn hard. Now here's Lindsay. SHE's come to the crossroads. SHE has chosen a path. It's the right path. It's a path made of principle -- that leads to character. Let HER continue on HER journey. You hold this GIRL's future in your hands, committee. It's a valuable future. Believe me. Don't destroy it! Protect it. Embrace it. It's gonna make ya proud one day -- I promise you.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:05 am 
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http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/w ... y-shepherd
Quote:
WATERLOO — Excitedly, students lined up to get a selfie with her.

They asked her to sign their books, their posters and placards.

The media all wanted to talk to the 22-year-old graduate student at Wilfrid Laurier University. There is a new star on campus.

But Lindsay Shepherd made it very clear her only goal is simply defending the concept of freedom of speech on university campuses.

She was doing just that at a demonstration in a park across from the campus where there is a monument to Canada’s fallen in military conflict to ensure freedom of speech.

In front of a couple of hundred students, faculties and supporters, Shepherd reiterated why she was there: “Authoritarian agendas have gone too far.”


She's gonna go alt-right, isn't she :(

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:19 am 
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You think she would be their new Joan of Arc because of how cute she is, but she's pretty well spoken so who knows. I think they're still fawning over Ben Shapiro's sister.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:27 am 
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America wrote:
I think they're still fawning over Ben Shapiro's sister.


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hello

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:49 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/warmington-wlu-students-rally-behind-lindsay-shepherd
Quote:
WATERLOO — Excitedly, students lined up to get a selfie with her.

They asked her to sign their books, their posters and placards.

The media all wanted to talk to the 22-year-old graduate student at Wilfrid Laurier University. There is a new star on campus.

But Lindsay Shepherd made it very clear her only goal is simply defending the concept of freedom of speech on university campuses.

She was doing just that at a demonstration in a park across from the campus where there is a monument to Canada’s fallen in military conflict to ensure freedom of speech.

In front of a couple of hundred students, faculties and supporters, Shepherd reiterated why she was there: “Authoritarian agendas have gone too far.”


She's gonna go alt-right, isn't she :(



I'm sure she's already being called "alt-right". In the same way someone like Dave Rubin is "alt-right". These are people who would have been considered way left of center at any other time in history.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:18 am 
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This is turning into quite the little controversy in Canada. I wonder if they're weasely little fraud of a PM will have to weigh in...odds he splits the middle but mostly sides with the trannies are pretty high.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:45 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
tommy wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:

We do know what the punishment was from the meeting itself though and it certainly did not involve Shepherd being kicked out or losing her funding but having to have lesson plans pre-approved and course notes submitted in advance.


In the most literal sense, yes. But what might also happen is that she is not allowed to teach again. This meeting was about power--the power of who gets to frame ideas. That's a significant power.

The punishment, even if it was limited to what was recorded, is actually pretty severe. They're trying to humiliate her. They're using every bad rhetorical device they can to confuse her, humiliate her, and intimidate her. What really pisses people off is that they are doing it in the name of justice and sensitivity. She also had little chance to defend herself. How Kafkaesque can you be? I thought universities were supposed to be about enlightenment? This is a trial in a back room, and one with consequences.

Pre-approved course notes and lesson plans . . . . The chances that this will go wrong are pretty damn high.

As we all know, this is a workplace issue, too. Someone does not like you? They're gonna find a way to eviscerate you. Bad fucking faith.

There are professors of courses across universities who always reserve the right to enter the sections their TAs teach without warning and likewise require complete conformity to a given lesson plan even when no single TA has actually screwed up. This is not something unprecedented for a graduate student to have to deal with, even if it wasn't the norm for this course. After all, it's the professor's name which appears on the course listing and they have a responsibility to ensure that the sections are in fact connected to what's being covered in lectures..



I agree with all of that. So why did Rambukkana lie? He could have simply pulled his TA aside and said, "Look, I want you to teach my course like this..." But he didn't do that. He made up a lie about a student complaint(s) and dragged his TA before a social justice tribunal.

But the problem is, I don't believe he thinks he lied. He told "his truth". And the irony is that he's a communications professor. Because without agreement on objective truth, how do we communicate?

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:43 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
tommy wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:

We do know what the punishment was from the meeting itself though and it certainly did not involve Shepherd being kicked out or losing her funding but having to have lesson plans pre-approved and course notes submitted in advance.


In the most literal sense, yes. But what might also happen is that she is not allowed to teach again. This meeting was about power--the power of who gets to frame ideas. That's a significant power.

The punishment, even if it was limited to what was recorded, is actually pretty severe. They're trying to humiliate her. They're using every bad rhetorical device they can to confuse her, humiliate her, and intimidate her. What really pisses people off is that they are doing it in the name of justice and sensitivity. She also had little chance to defend herself. How Kafkaesque can you be? I thought universities were supposed to be about enlightenment? This is a trial in a back room, and one with consequences.

Pre-approved course notes and lesson plans . . . . The chances that this will go wrong are pretty damn high.

As we all know, this is a workplace issue, too. Someone does not like you? They're gonna find a way to eviscerate you. Bad fucking faith.

There are professors of courses across universities who always reserve the right to enter the sections their TAs teach without warning and likewise require complete conformity to a given lesson plan even when no single TA has actually screwed up. This is not something unprecedented for a graduate student to have to deal with, even if it wasn't the norm for this course. After all, it's the professor's name which appears on the course listing and they have a responsibility to ensure that the sections are in fact connected to what's being covered in lectures..



I agree with all of that. So why did Rambukkana lie? He could have simply pulled his TA aside and said, "Look, I want you to teach my course like this..." But he didn't do that. He made up a lie about a student complaint(s) and dragged his TA before a social justice tribunal.

But the problem is, I don't believe he thinks he lied. He told "his truth". And the irony is that he's a communications professor. Because without agreement on objective truth, how do we communicate?

He's less concerned with producing knowledge and more concerned with winning the good fight. There are ways to be honest, avoid solipsism, and do both.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I agree with all of that. So why did Rambukkana lie? He could have simply pulled his TA aside and said, "Look, I want you to teach my course like this..." But he didn't do that. He made up a lie about a student complaint(s) and dragged his TA before a social justice tribunal.

But the problem is, I don't believe he thinks he lied. He told "his truth". And the irony is that he's a communications professor. Because without agreement on objective truth, how do we communicate?

I've never denied Rambukkana came across as a complete idiot from the start. But one professor being a dipshit is a long ways away from confirmation of the terrible effects of C16 and conspiracy theories about universities being hotbeds of cultural Marxism and whatever other Peterson theories this was supposed to be definitive proof of. Especially since the university in question reprimanded him and the others who held the meeting. Also if the complaint was totally fabricated, there goes any connection to worries about snowflake millenials and the like as well, another major talking point in the immediate aftermath of the story.

As far as grand free speech debates on campus go, I'd reiterate that what happened to Finkelstein and Salaita is still far more worrying than anything that transpired here, and of course in those cases the parties threatening free speech were anything but the left wing cultural Marxists and the snowflake students the Peterson types are so constantly worried about (and I'm sure most coincidentally those cases are rarely mentioned by self-proclaimed free speech champions).


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:40 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I agree with all of that. So why did Rambukkana lie? He could have simply pulled his TA aside and said, "Look, I want you to teach my course like this..." But he didn't do that. He made up a lie about a student complaint(s) and dragged his TA before a social justice tribunal.

But the problem is, I don't believe he thinks he lied. He told "his truth". And the irony is that he's a communications professor. Because without agreement on objective truth, how do we communicate?

I've never denied Rambukkana came across as a complete idiot from the start. But one professor being a dipshit is a long ways away from confirmation of the terrible effects of C16 and conspiracy theories about universities being hotbeds of cultural Marxism and whatever other Peterson theories this was supposed to be definitive proof of. Especially since the university in question reprimanded him and the others who held the meeting. Also if the complaint was totally fabricated, there goes any connection to worries about snowflake millenials and the like as well, another major talking point in the immediate aftermath of the story.

As far as grand free speech debates on campus go, I'd reiterate that what happened to Finkelstein and Salaita is still far more worrying than anything that transpired here, and of course in those cases the parties threatening free speech were anything but the left wing cultural Marxists and the snowflake students the Peterson types are so constantly worried about (and I'm sure most coincidentally those cases are rarely mentioned by self-proclaimed free speech champions).

I have a hard time sympathizing with Salaita. He said some pretty sick stuff. He's also in a criticism-proof field. Criticize them and you're immediately branded an imperialist. Still, it was his own Twitter account. He got dealt a band hand. And whether or not I think his field is valid or not, there are departments in it and one of them wanted him to teach there.

I think that the point with Rambukkana is that academics do this frequently and usually get away with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:03 pm 
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tommy wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I agree with all of that. So why did Rambukkana lie? He could have simply pulled his TA aside and said, "Look, I want you to teach my course like this..." But he didn't do that. He made up a lie about a student complaint(s) and dragged his TA before a social justice tribunal.

But the problem is, I don't believe he thinks he lied. He told "his truth". And the irony is that he's a communications professor. Because without agreement on objective truth, how do we communicate?

I've never denied Rambukkana came across as a complete idiot from the start. But one professor being a dipshit is a long ways away from confirmation of the terrible effects of C16 and conspiracy theories about universities being hotbeds of cultural Marxism and whatever other Peterson theories this was supposed to be definitive proof of. Especially since the university in question reprimanded him and the others who held the meeting. Also if the complaint was totally fabricated, there goes any connection to worries about snowflake millenials and the like as well, another major talking point in the immediate aftermath of the story.

As far as grand free speech debates on campus go, I'd reiterate that what happened to Finkelstein and Salaita is still far more worrying than anything that transpired here, and of course in those cases the parties threatening free speech were anything but the left wing cultural Marxists and the snowflake students the Peterson types are so constantly worried about (and I'm sure most coincidentally those cases are rarely mentioned by self-proclaimed free speech champions).

I have a hard time sympathizing with Salaita. He said some pretty sick stuff. He's also in a criticism-proof field. Criticize them and you're immediately branded an imperialist. Still, it was his own Twitter account. He got dealt a band hand. And whether or not I think his field is valid or not, there are departments in it and one of them wanted him to teach there.

I think that the point with Rambukkana is that academics do this frequently and usually get away with it.

But there really isn't much evidence at all that academics do frequently engage in this type of behavior and get away with it. I certainly understand though why the Peterson types want there to be since it lets them continue to play the victim.

There have no doubt been lots of free speech controversies on campuses over the last few years (though I think that was always the case and it's just the national coverage that's increased), but I'd say if anything the recent controversies indicate that the greatest threats to speech come from asscovering administrators and trustees more so than politically correct students and agenda-driven SJW professors.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:06 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
But there really isn't much evidence at all that academics do frequently engage in this type of behavior and get away with it. I certainly understand though why the Peterson types want there to be since it lets them continue to play the victim.

There have no doubt been lots of free speech controversies on campuses over the last few years (though I think that was always the case and it's just the national coverage that's increased), but I'd say if anything the recent controversies indicate that the greatest threats to speech come from asscovering administrators and trustees more so than politically correct students and agenda-driven SJW professors.

Except you dont see how closely the two are linked. Spineless bureacrats and administrators know the only thing that upset the apple cart on campus is the left having a tantrum, so they appease them. That cycle repeats itself enough times and there's no more free speech on campus, which is where we are now.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:12 pm 
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tommy wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I agree with all of that. So why did Rambukkana lie? He could have simply pulled his TA aside and said, "Look, I want you to teach my course like this..." But he didn't do that. He made up a lie about a student complaint(s) and dragged his TA before a social justice tribunal.

But the problem is, I don't believe he thinks he lied. He told "his truth". And the irony is that he's a communications professor. Because without agreement on objective truth, how do we communicate?

I've never denied Rambukkana came across as a complete idiot from the start. But one professor being a dipshit is a long ways away from confirmation of the terrible effects of C16 and conspiracy theories about universities being hotbeds of cultural Marxism and whatever other Peterson theories this was supposed to be definitive proof of. Especially since the university in question reprimanded him and the others who held the meeting. Also if the complaint was totally fabricated, there goes any connection to worries about snowflake millenials and the like as well, another major talking point in the immediate aftermath of the story.

As far as grand free speech debates on campus go, I'd reiterate that what happened to Finkelstein and Salaita is still far more worrying than anything that transpired here, and of course in those cases the parties threatening free speech were anything but the left wing cultural Marxists and the snowflake students the Peterson types are so constantly worried about (and I'm sure most coincidentally those cases are rarely mentioned by self-proclaimed free speech champions).

I have a hard time sympathizing with Salaita. He said some pretty sick stuff. He's also in a criticism-proof field. Criticize them and you're immediately branded an imperialist. Still, it was his own Twitter account. He got dealt a band hand. And whether or not I think his field is valid or not, there are departments in it and one of them wanted him to teach there.

I think that the point with Rambukkana is that academics do this frequently and usually get away with it.


Those aren't really free speech issues anyway. A university does not owe a professor employment or tenure. Especially a professor who sounds far more like Hitler than Jordan Peterson ever has. But if Salaita or Finkelstein wants to stand on the quad and deny the Holocaust I think they should be allowed to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:14 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
But there really isn't much evidence at all that academics do frequently engage in this type of behavior and get away with it. I certainly understand though why the Peterson types want there to be since it lets them continue to play the victim.

Well, I have to say that I have seen this happen. Much of it is simply office politics and people being shitty, but I have seen grad students and untenured teachers pushed out for political beliefs.

And special interest groups demand things quite frequently and often get them. Then they get pissed off when others call them out on it. There's this weird sort of bullying on campus that bridges few gaps or creates more understanding among people.

It's like many campuses have to have a Party Member sit in on all decisions. Or, at least, many others feel that way. Maybe that's where the problem lies.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:16 pm 
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America wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
But there really isn't much evidence at all that academics do frequently engage in this type of behavior and get away with it. I certainly understand though why the Peterson types want there to be since it lets them continue to play the victim.

There have no doubt been lots of free speech controversies on campuses over the last few years (though I think that was always the case and it's just the national coverage that's increased), but I'd say if anything the recent controversies indicate that the greatest threats to speech come from asscovering administrators and trustees more so than politically correct students and agenda-driven SJW professors.

Except you dont see how closely the two are linked. Spineless bureacrats and administrators know the only thing that upset the apple cart on campus is the left having a tantrum, so they appease them. That cycle repeats itself enough times and there's no more free speech on campus, which is where we are now.

That's not the case though, as just as often they'll engage in their asscovering at the behest of clear non-leftists as in the Finklestein and Salaita cases. And of course, you now have Republican legislatures wanting to punish students for their own exercises of free speech by threatening expulsion for protestors of conservative speakers.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
tommy wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I agree with all of that. So why did Rambukkana lie? He could have simply pulled his TA aside and said, "Look, I want you to teach my course like this..." But he didn't do that. He made up a lie about a student complaint(s) and dragged his TA before a social justice tribunal.

But the problem is, I don't believe he thinks he lied. He told "his truth". And the irony is that he's a communications professor. Because without agreement on objective truth, how do we communicate?

I've never denied Rambukkana came across as a complete idiot from the start. But one professor being a dipshit is a long ways away from confirmation of the terrible effects of C16 and conspiracy theories about universities being hotbeds of cultural Marxism and whatever other Peterson theories this was supposed to be definitive proof of. Especially since the university in question reprimanded him and the others who held the meeting. Also if the complaint was totally fabricated, there goes any connection to worries about snowflake millenials and the like as well, another major talking point in the immediate aftermath of the story.

As far as grand free speech debates on campus go, I'd reiterate that what happened to Finkelstein and Salaita is still far more worrying than anything that transpired here, and of course in those cases the parties threatening free speech were anything but the left wing cultural Marxists and the snowflake students the Peterson types are so constantly worried about (and I'm sure most coincidentally those cases are rarely mentioned by self-proclaimed free speech champions).

I have a hard time sympathizing with Salaita. He said some pretty sick stuff. He's also in a criticism-proof field. Criticize them and you're immediately branded an imperialist. Still, it was his own Twitter account. He got dealt a band hand. And whether or not I think his field is valid or not, there are departments in it and one of them wanted him to teach there.

I think that the point with Rambukkana is that academics do this frequently and usually get away with it.


Those aren't really free speech issues anyway. A university does not owe a professor employment or tenure. Especially a professor who sounds far more like Hitler than Jordan Peterson ever has. But if Salaita or Finkelstein wants to stand on the quad and deny the Holocaust I think they should be allowed to do so.

Those are not First Amendment issues, true, but they are free speech issues in the spirit of free speech and open discussion. So I don't necessarily disagree.

The First Amendment issues are pretty clear: if Neo-Nazis want to march at UF, they have to let them. The President of UF handled it pretty well, though (if I remember correctly, which I might not have).


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Look at what happened to Mizzou. That's the cautionary tale administrators worry about, and why they will never defy leftist students or faculty ever again.


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 Post subject: Re: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:18 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
America wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
But there really isn't much evidence at all that academics do frequently engage in this type of behavior and get away with it. I certainly understand though why the Peterson types want there to be since it lets them continue to play the victim.

There have no doubt been lots of free speech controversies on campuses over the last few years (though I think that was always the case and it's just the national coverage that's increased), but I'd say if anything the recent controversies indicate that the greatest threats to speech come from asscovering administrators and trustees more so than politically correct students and agenda-driven SJW professors.

Except you dont see how closely the two are linked. Spineless bureacrats and administrators know the only thing that upset the apple cart on campus is the left having a tantrum, so they appease them. That cycle repeats itself enough times and there's no more free speech on campus, which is where we are now.

That's not the case though, as just as often they'll engage in their asscovering at the behest of clear non-leftists as in the Finklestein and Salaita cases. And of course, you now have Republican legislatures wanting to punish students for their own exercises of free speech by threatening expulsion for protestors of conservative speakers.

That's nuts. That's unbelievably un-American.


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