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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:08 am 
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Also air travel is only bad if you try and do it as cheap as possible. Buy extended leg room, eat at the airport at a non fast food place and have a beer on the plane. Also avoid layovers and the discount airlines.

I'll take that over sleeping overnight on a train to Salt Lake City.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:38 am 
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Look if you want to spend a ton of money I don't think anyone will disagree air travel is the way to go. I guess a limo would be more expensive? Helicopter?


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:43 am 
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I can carry on my golf clubs and a fat sack of sticky icky hassle-free on the Amtrak when playing golf in Michigan.

You people and your absolutes.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:44 am 
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America wrote:
Look if you want to spend a ton of money I don't think anyone will disagree air travel is the way to go. I guess a limo would be more expensive? Helicopter?

Extended leg room, a beer, and a decent meal isn't a ton of money.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:47 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
Look if you want to spend a ton of money I don't think anyone will disagree air travel is the way to go. I guess a limo would be more expensive? Helicopter?

Extended leg room, a beer, and a decent meal isn't a ton of money.


Maybe it is maybe it isn't. Couple weeks ago was flying back from LA. Wanted to upgrade to economy plus. Was going to cost me $149. I just dealt with the torture. Had a gin and tonic though. airplane booze is a bargain relative to eveything else in the flying experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:52 am 
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The leg room isn't too much of an issue for me. I will take a free upgrade but at 5' 10 1/2" I am not paying. I agree with Rick in that when I have to fly I simply accept the fact and eat, have a drink whatever. So while I do not stress at all it does not mean I have to like it. As with sporting events I do not like being gouged for my nice burger and craft beer at the terminal or my in flight beverage.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:55 am 
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$149? Was that upgrading the day of the flight? I've never seen anything close to that when booking. Did you have one of those new basic economy fares that don't even let you bring a carryon?

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:57 am 
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pittmike wrote:
The leg room isn't too much of an issue for me. I will take a free upgrade but at 5' 10 1/2" I am not paying. I agree with Rick in that when I have to fly I simply accept the fact and eat, have a drink whatever. So while I do not stress at all it does not mean I have to like it. As with sporting events I do not like being gouged for my nice burger and craft beer at the terminal or my in flight beverage.
That's the point though. People would rather save money than make the flight even slightly more tolerable. Then again you aren't hating flying so much that you are hoping that overnight train rides from Chicago to Salt Lake City become possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:01 am 
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America wrote:
There really is nothing better about getting up at 4 AM to catch a 6:45 departure than just catching a train in the evening, having dinner on board, then waking up at your destination at a more reasonable hour. Is there a way to make that work from a price perspective? Probably, actually. But you'd have to get people to buy into it en masse and the initial investment would be massive.

Look at it this way, lets call the aforementioned hypothetical an 11 hour journey. 8 PM to 7 AM. At a "modest" 150 mph pace, which is about the speed as the non-sprinter ICE trains on DB, that's 1500 miles. From Chicago that would be just about anything in the USA east of Salt Lake City. I mean you've gotta sleep anyways right? Why not travel while you sleep.

It'd be an unprecedented undertaking, and lets get real the pathetic USA is no longer interested in doing anything bold anymore, but there's a lot of benefits to it. It'd do a great deal of benefit to city centers and the environment.

This is really fucking funny from someone who's country has pretty much become a vassal state to Merkel's Germany. The Germans couldn't take you over in 2 World Wars (thanks to the UK and US BTW) but damn they've conquered you via the common market. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:06 am 
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Also, the distance from Chicago to Salt Lake City is roughly 1,400 miles. That's slightly more than the distance from Paris to Minsk. Google maps tells me that public transportation from Paris to Minsk would take 32 hours. That's roughly the same time it would take for public transportation in the United States and it also certainly isn't a good example of "Europe really has figured it out and the United States is doomed because they don't have it!".

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:08 am 
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How much of a strange, erotic journey is it to go from Paris to Minsk?

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:43 am 
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I have taken trains all over Europe but mostly within Germany, Switzerland and France. They were all awesome. City center to city center, same day arrival, etc. Out side of some small regions here though it would never work. It is just not the same for many reasons and some need to get over that fact until there is some game changing new technology that is not cost prohibitive.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:07 am 
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From the QCA to Chicago via air is around $600.
no train because for some reason Madigan does not want it to actually run. I can drive to Galesburg and go from there and it is around $40 round trip or Grey hound for $40 round trip.
So explain to me why a 160 mile 4 minute plane flight is over $200?

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:16 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Also, the distance from Chicago to Salt Lake City is roughly 1,400 miles. That's slightly more than the distance from Paris to Minsk. Google maps tells me that public transportation from Paris to Minsk would take 32 hours. That's roughly the same time it would take for public transportation in the United States and it also certainly isn't a good example of "Europe really has figured it out and the United States is doomed because they don't have it!".

Well ok Belarus is almost impossible to get into. You need a visa just to take the train from Europe to Moscow through Belarus.

You're talking about crossing minimum four national boundaries, three different currencies, one country that is still essentially communist, another that was Warsaw Pact, another that was cut in half...the distance isn't the issue there.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:20 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
$149? Was that upgrading the day of the flight? I've never seen anything close to that when booking. Did you have one of those new basic economy fares that don't even let you bring a carryon?


Yes it was day of flight.

Flying to Europe this year (Alitalia). They make you pay $70 just to pick a seat. Not a upgraded seat. Just any old damn seat. So we coughed up the $280 just to ensure we get to sit together as a famly.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:22 am 
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chaspoppcap wrote:
From the QCA to Chicago via air is around $600.
no train because for some reason Madigan does not want it to actually run. I can drive to Galesburg and go from there and it is around $40 round trip or Grey hound for $40 round trip.
So explain to me why a 160 mile 4 minute plane flight is over $200?

Move

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:23 am 
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America wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Also, the distance from Chicago to Salt Lake City is roughly 1,400 miles. That's slightly more than the distance from Paris to Minsk. Google maps tells me that public transportation from Paris to Minsk would take 32 hours. That's roughly the same time it would take for public transportation in the United States and it also certainly isn't a good example of "Europe really has figured it out and the United States is doomed because they don't have it!".

Well ok Belarus is almost impossible to get into. You need a visa just to take the train from Europe to Moscow through Belarus.

You're talking about crossing minimum four national boundaries, three different currencies, one country that is still essentially communist, another that was Warsaw Pact, another that was cut in half...the distance isn't the issue there.

Looks like you are saying European train travel and American train travel are not comparable.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:24 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
$149? Was that upgrading the day of the flight? I've never seen anything close to that when booking. Did you have one of those new basic economy fares that don't even let you bring a carryon?


Yes it was day of flight.

Flying to Europe this year (Alitalia). They make you pay $70 just to pick a seat. Not a upgraded seat. Just any old damn seat. So we coughed up the $280 just to ensure we get to sit together as a famly.


I learned about this pay to pick your seat in any way scam from Spirit this year. Some of these fees are really weird. I should probably pay the fee to deserve not to crash and die as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:28 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
$149? Was that upgrading the day of the flight? I've never seen anything close to that when booking. Did you have one of those new basic economy fares that don't even let you bring a carryon?


Yes it was day of flight.

Flying to Europe this year (Alitalia). They make you pay $70 just to pick a seat. Not a upgraded seat. Just any old damn seat. So we coughed up the $280 just to ensure we get to sit together as a famly.

That's what people hunting for the cheapest fares have done. All these extras for the same price you would have paid before.

Flying is like half the price if what it was a few decades ago though adjusting for inflation.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:35 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Flying is like half the price if what it was a few decades ago though adjusting for inflation.


That is a very difficult thing to measure. You have to include the myriad upcharges. Non-refundability of tickets. no food. way less space. I dunno. maybe its possible. But it would be simple for anyone with an agenda to skew those numbers however they want.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:38 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
$149? Was that upgrading the day of the flight? I've never seen anything close to that when booking. Did you have one of those new basic economy fares that don't even let you bring a carryon?

I took basic economy two weeks ago on American to Dallas. $110 round trip Fri depart 8pm - Sun depart 7am booked a week before the flight.

It was perfect. A small backpack under the seat and was assigned a middle seat. A cheap flight with the reliability of American compared to the bare bones operations of Frontier & Spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:43 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Flying is like half the price if what it was a few decades ago though adjusting for inflation.


That is a very difficult thing to measure. You have to include the myriad upcharges. Non-refundability of tickets. no food. way less space. I dunno. maybe its possible. But it would be simple for anyone with an agenda to skew those numbers however they want.
The food is the only thing that is a monetary thing. Also, food isn't going to account for a 50% difference.

It is more cramped and less convenient but that's where the point comes in that you can now pay for more if that is what you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:45 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Flying is like half the price if what it was a few decades ago though adjusting for inflation.


That is a very difficult thing to measure. You have to include the myriad upcharges. Non-refundability of tickets. no food. way less space. I dunno. maybe its possible. But it would be simple for anyone with an agenda to skew those numbers however they want.
The food is the only thing that is a monetary thing. Also, food isn't going to account for a 50% difference.

It is more cramped and less convenient but that's where the point comes in that you can now pay for more if that is what you want.


You just said food was the only monetary thing and then said you could pay more money for the same space and convenience you used to get.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:52 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
You just said food was the only monetary thing and then said you could pay more money for the same space and convenience you used to get.
Yes. That's the point. Let's say I have a plane ticket in 1980. It give me more leg room, food, and may be refundable(I don't know the history of refundable tickets but honestly who cares about refundable tickets. I have never not had a refund granted or needed one.). It's also twice the price. So, my choice is either accept less space and convenience, or spend some of that money I saved to get more leg room. I still pay less but others who want the cheapest fare don't and fly for much cheaper.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:58 am 
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I was just responding to your unsubstantiated claim that airline travel costs have declined in real terms over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
I was just responding to your unsubstantiated claim that airline travel costs have declined in real terms over time.
Unsubstantiated?
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/

You think I invented the idea that the cost to fly is much cheaper now than it was?

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:04 pm 
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LOL. That study was put out by the airline lobby. of course they would say that.

https://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals ... el-is.html

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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:18 pm 
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You don't need food on a domestic flight. You don't even need food on east coast -> London flights. Eat before you board and bring a snack.

The USA is lucky to have Southwest. As great as €10 fares are I wish there was a European counterpart that had Southwest's policies on refunds/changes and customer service. If there is an argument that air travel can be done affordably and well Southwest is it.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Dude I flew transatlantic yesterday for $100. The 787's don't burn any fuel. Costs are way down.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
LOL. That study was put out by the airline lobby. of course they would say that.

https://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals ... el-is.html
That article is laughable. It only counts refundable fares currently. It counts the phone reservation fee because the internet didn't exist. It counts the excess baggage fee of $200 along with two other bags. It counts priority boarding AND extra legroom.

So, let's do a realistic view of it. I'll trust his numbers on the 1974 one.

$628 for 1974 in todays dollars.

I just found a flight on American on the first day I searched for $110 in the main cabin. I get free bags with my credit card, but let's add the bag fee of $25. Let's get the legroom for $68. No need for priority boarding though with that. The meal is $10. So that is a total of $213.

So, I can comfortably get there for $213. Even if we say that $110 fare is because of the time you still have roughly $100 to play with before you get to a 50% fare.

You really should have questioned that link as soon as you saw a $200 excess bag fee and not posted it.

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