Players say a lot of dumb things. Ernie Banks said Curt Simmons was the toughest pitcher he ever faced. The Bulls beat everybody and Jordan was their star. It's natural to talk about how great the guy who beat you was. It doesn't really mean a whole lot though. It wouldn't matter if LeBron won the next ten championships, Barkley is still going to say Jordan was the greatest.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

I dont think he has.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwxXsEltyas

Abridged video (15 minutes) of M.I.T. Professor John Leonard shitting all over the Deflategate "data" supplied by Exponent, a consulting firm also known for putting together papers disputing the dangers of second-hand smoke and another on asbestos ... ok, sure ... real credible outfit.

Incidentally, scientists from places such as Carnegie Mellon, the University of Chicago, Boston College, Rockefeller University, the University of Illinois, and Bowdoin College all agreed with John Lenoard's disputation of Exponent.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

This thread is quickly approaching "Jimmy Butler Trade Rumor" status.

Which "little guard" did Jordan have trouble guarding before he came back from his first retirement?

His whole game changed after that.

Even so, the only guys who gave him anything that would approach trouble were Allen Iverson, who could shake anyone and was as fast as he ever would be - he wasn't even old enough to drink - and Stoudemire, who Jordan did not face-up very often, but who excelled at firing up long shots and ALSO darting in and out of the trees.

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I like thinking big. . . If you're going to be thinking anything, you might as well think big.
-Donald J. Trump, BPE

He'd be wrong. As would Walter.

But I'm shocked at JORR's centers argument. And especially by his lack of inclusion of Russell. Wins matter.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Ok... glad I came back to all.... that.
So Brady, yeah?
Thanks.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Russell was too short to meet his criteria.

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I did mention him.

I just couldn't put a shooting guard- regardless of how great- above the four or five best centers.

It would be like saying Anthony Munoz was better than Joe Montana.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

That's just an awful analogy.

Your problem here is you think of basketball in terms of how they played the game in 1970. One of the reasons Jordan is so revered is because even as a "little guy" he vanquished several great centers in the 90's and became by far the most dominant player in the game. By your logic, David Robinson and Hakeem have to be better and more important than Jordan. But we all saw that wasn't true.

If the best center is necessarily better than the best shooting guard, Jordan wouldn't have six titles and Kobe wouldn't have more without Shaq than vice versa. Proof is in the pudding. Your argument doesn't hold water.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Granted, it's not perfect, but you're coming close to admitting Jordan is granted special points precisely because he isn't a big guy, as if size isn't the same type of physical attribute as any other that makes a player great.

Also, that's another thing that comes from the era in which you became a basketball fan- assigning titles to specific players rather than teams.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

There's no way JORR believes that shit. He's just being ridiculous.

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Again, you're not even attempting a counter argument to us saying Jordan is the GOAT. I don't care how big or little a guy is here. I've spent years telling Nas how Duncan is better than Kobe.

As far as the titles go, it's obviously more important in basketball than any other sport because of the impact one player has, but we can throw out titles and team success and focus on individual acocomishmrnts. Jordan dwarfs Shaq in that area as well. It's ok to admit that there isn't a logical argument to be made that Shaq was better than Jordan and you're just needling bulls fans.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yeah, he only seems half committed to this troll job anyway.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

It's funny, though, because when I talk basketball players with my old man, his knee-jerk question is always "how big is he?" He's really just asking for height. And he hates the guard-dominated game. But he's in his mid-70s so it's understandable.

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I think it's interesting that this argument stemmed from JORR saying centers and QBs have to be the best because they are the most important. That doesn't really add up logically though because if you say Jerry Rice isn't as good as Tom Brady because Rice needed someone to get him the ball, it's tough to turn around and say Shaq is better than Jordan. Jordan didn't need someone to get him the ball. Shaq did.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Ehh...

IMO, the real answer is basketball is a sport where position is irrelevant.

In football, the rules make the QB the most important position. Brady is the best solely because the rules make a QB have the biggest impact on the game.

Pretty much all sports compartmentalize skill sets. Basketball is the one that doesn't, and it's confusing for our older friends.

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Again, it's not simply size. Tiny Archibald was better than Luc Longley. But the greatest big guy is just going to be better than the greatest guard. Wilt and Russell and Shaquille aren't just some average schmoes. The fact that none of Jordan's teams was any more than what you might call pretty good until they got Cartwright, a good- not great- center should tell you a lot.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

It's not though. That's why Luc Longley played instead of just going with Rodman at center most of the time. Even in an era where there were few top big men and the position had been diminished.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

OK, JORR's clearly not serious.

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Jordan was one the best team six times. None of those six times did he have anything close to resembling a good center.

I'm still waiting on an actual argument that Shaq was better than Jordan. You haven't really made one yet outside of height and FG%, which we already discussed two pages ago.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The 90's had few top big men?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If position is really "irrelevant", why wouldn't your top five be on the floor for most of the minutes? Do you really think Longley was one of the best five on those teams?

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

Yeah, relative to the time when Wilt and Russell and Kareem played. Maybe not relative to a time when people thought Dwight Howard was good.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

That's simply wrong. Cartwright was a very good center and Longley was probably above average during the championship run. Not to mention they picked up the guy who got lost at sea one year and he kicked ass.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

Stop. You're drunk on wine.

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You're not going to answer the question, because you know he wasn't. But it's still an important position and they couldn't get away with just throwing Kukoc out there in his place.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

They had to account for matchups. Longley was big. Are you saying that Longley was the catalyst for their titles?

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Define very good. Longley was absolutely not above average.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You're all over the place in this thread. The 90's had few good big men but happened to produce one who was a better player than Michael Jordan.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul