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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:40 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
OK, JORR's clearly not serious.



If position is really "irrelevant", why wouldn't your top five be on the floor for most of the minutes? Do you really think Longley was one of the best five on those teams?


Stop. You're drunk on wine.



You're not going to answer the question, because you know he wasn't. But it's still an important position and they couldn't get away with just throwing Kukoc out there in his place.


They had to account for matchups. Longley was big. Are you saying that Longley was the catalyst for their titles?



Absolutely not. But I am saying you needed him or someone at least like him to win.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:41 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Jordan was one the best team six times. None of those six times did he have anything close to resembling a good center.


That's simply wrong. Cartwright was a very good center and Longley was probably above average during the championship run. Not to mention they picked up the guy who got lost at sea one year and he kicked ass.

Define very good. Longley was absolutely not above average.


I think if you look at the starting centers in the league during the time he was on those championship teams, you'll have to admit he was in the top half.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:44 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Ehh...

IMO, the real answer is basketball is a sport where position is irrelevant.


It's not though. That's why Luc Longley played instead of just going with Rodman at center most of the time. Even in an era where there were few top big men and the position had been diminished.

The 90's had few top big men?

:lol: :lol: :lol:



Yeah, relative to the time when Wilt and Russell and Kareem played. Maybe not relative to a time when people thought Dwight Howard was good.

You're all over the place in this thread. The 90's had few good big men but happened to produce one who was a better player than Michael Jordan. :lol:


I'm not all over the place at all. There were less Hall of Fame centers in the 90s than the 60s. Shaq was one from the 90s.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Dint wilt dominate an Era when the league was nothing but 6 foot weird white guys?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Dint wilt dominate an Era when the league was nothing but 6 foot weird white guys?


No. He played against more Hall of Fame centers than any other player in history.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Jordan was one the best team six times. None of those six times did he have anything close to resembling a good center.


That's simply wrong. Cartwright was a very good center and Longley was probably above average during the championship run. Not to mention they picked up the guy who got lost at sea one year and he kicked ass.

Define very good. Longley was absolutely not above average.


I think if you look at the starting centers in the league during the time he was on those championship teams, you'll have to admit he was in the top half.

I'll be at a computer later and find the rosters on basketball reference. I'm 100% sure Longley won't end up as a top 14 center.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Ehh...

IMO, the real answer is basketball is a sport where position is irrelevant.


It's not though. That's why Luc Longley played instead of just going with Rodman at center most of the time. Even in an era where there were few top big men and the position had been diminished.

The 90's had few top big men?

:lol: :lol: :lol:



Yeah, relative to the time when Wilt and Russell and Kareem played. Maybe not relative to a time when people thought Dwight Howard was good.

You're all over the place in this thread. The 90's had few good big men but happened to produce one who was a better player than Michael Jordan. :lol:


I'm not all over the place at all. There were less Hall of Fame centers in the 90s than the 60s. Shaq was one from the 90s.

But there were several hall of fame centers who played in the 90's as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:51 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
But there were several hall of fame centers who played in the 90's as well.


Yeah, there were a handful. It wasn't a banner time for great big men though. That's part of the reason we're having this conversation- the elevation of something referred to as a "complete floor game" over simple scoring efficiency and defense in the paint.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But there were several hall of fame centers who played in the 90's as well.


Yeah, there were a handful. It wasn't a banner time for great big men though. That's part of the reason we're having this conversation- the elevation of something referred to as a "complete floor game" over simple scoring efficiency and defense in the paint.

You're crazy. David Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Alonzo, Dikembe, Ewing were great. Other guys like Daughtery, Smits and Divac were very good as well. At least a third of the league at any given time had very good centers. That's why if we break down all the centers when Longley was at his best it won't be hard to find 14 better ones.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

I actually never did any such thing. The nature of the game is such that a great big man is simply going to be more important than a great guard.


You literally just re-worded what he said and agreed with him.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
That's why you see teams draft Shawn Bradley in the first round.


Michael Jordan was drafted 3rd overall; you tell me if the two ahead of him wouldn't take him now.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's really not much different than saying that the greatest OL couldn't possibly be greater than the greatest QB


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
So you agree that Jordan had a flaw in his game.


Uhh... sure... he wasn't perfect (but he was close).

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Free throw shooting is a silly complaint used by white suburban guys who hit 70% in their driveways to diminish the impact of guys like Shaq and Wilt. Most games that had Shaq and Wilt in them didn't come down to free throws at the end.


Stop projecting. This isn't even one of the best arguments we're using.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I know that Jerry Krause is a whipping boy when it comes to the Bulls, but it can't be denied that he created a situation for Jordan to thrive. I think it's entirely possible that in a different world he could have been George Gervin and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Jordan had the highest PER in NBA history in 87-88, before he was even on a good team. He would have put his nutsack on George Gervin's chin and then invented the finger roll.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
How am I doing? :D


Terrible.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:02 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
But there were several hall of fame centers who played in the 90's as well.


Yeah, there were a handful. It wasn't a banner time for great big men though. That's part of the reason we're having this conversation- the elevation of something referred to as a "complete floor game" over simple scoring efficiency and defense in the paint.

You're crazy. David Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Alonzo, Dikembe, Ewing were great. Other guys like Daughtery, Smits and Divac were very good as well. At least a third of the league at any given time had very good centers. That's why if we break down all the centers when Longley was at his best it won't be hard to find 14 better ones.


Hakeem and Shaq were great. Mourning was a glorified power forward. Mutombo was a defensive specialist. Ewing and Daugherty are both probably underrated. Short career for Daugherty though. I think he was out of the league by the time Longley was with the Bulls. Very good players. I might consider Ewing nearly great. Smits and Divac, they were okay. Anyway, those might be the only guys that were obviously better than Longley during those seasons. Maybe you can find a couple more. And maybe a few more who are arguable.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:03 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

I actually never did any such thing. The nature of the game is such that a great big man is simply going to be more important than a great guard.


You literally just re-worded what he said and agreed with him.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
That's why you see teams draft Shawn Bradley in the first round.


Michael Jordan was drafted 3rd overall; you tell me if the two ahead of him wouldn't take him now.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's really not much different than saying that the greatest OL couldn't possibly be greater than the greatest QB


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
So you agree that Jordan had a flaw in his game.


Uhh... sure... he wasn't perfect (but he was close).

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Free throw shooting is a silly complaint used by white suburban guys who hit 70% in their driveways to diminish the impact of guys like Shaq and Wilt. Most games that had Shaq and Wilt in them didn't come down to free throws at the end.


Stop projecting. This isn't even one of the best arguments we're using.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I know that Jerry Krause is a whipping boy when it comes to the Bulls, but it can't be denied that he created a situation for Jordan to thrive. I think it's entirely possible that in a different world he could have been George Gervin and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Jordan had the highest PER in NBA history in 87-88, before he was even on a good team. He would have put his nutsack on George Gervin's chin and then invented the finger roll.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
How am I doing? :D


Terrible.


Most of that is wrong, but I don't feel like responding BRick-style.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Apology accepted.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:02 am 
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Luc Longley sucked, any 7 foot stiff would have been fine though with MJ..That's why Cartwright or Wennington were fine...You could have put Greg Ostertag in there 25 minutes a game and not even noticed a difference.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 am 
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JORR,
What is the dividing line?

Is Jordan the 4th best player ever?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:19 am 
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312player wrote:
Luc Longley sucked, any 7 foot stiff would have been fine though with MJ..That's why Cartwright or Wennington were fine...You could have put Greg Ostertag in there 25 minutes a game and not even noticed a difference.



I don't believe that's true and you guys are seriously underestimated how good Cartwright was. Longley wasn't a "stiff" either. He was a good player.

My argument is simply that the greatest player has to be a center. I don't care which of the four or five greatest centers you believe it is. And it's not "just size" either. Russell wasn't particularly big. And Bob Lanier and David Robinson were great players but I'm not making an argument that they were better than Jordan or Magic.

I would make a similar argument that the greatest boxer has to be a heavyweight. That doesn't mean I think Jerry Quarry was greater than Roberto Duran. I don't believe most boxing experts/historians consider Ali the greatest. The consensus usually comes down to Ray Robinson or Henry Armstrong. Maybe Willie Pep. A lot of them won't even have Ali as the top heavyweight. That's fine, but then I'd argue that Joe Louis has to be the top guy rather than someone from a lower weight class.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:20 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
JORR,
What is the dividing line?

Is Jordan the 4th best player ever?



I'd have him around sixth. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Magic, Jordan.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:22 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
JORR,
What is the dividing line?

Is Jordan the 4th best player ever?



I'd have him around sixth. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Magic, Jordan.
Why isn't Tim Duncan better than Jordan?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:23 am 
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The funny thing to me is JORR loves to insist on how overrated Pippen was. Guess Pip and MJ should be thankful they had guys like Luc and Cartwright to carry them to six titles. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:25 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
JORR,
What is the dividing line?

Is Jordan the 4th best player ever?



I'd have him around sixth. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Magic, Jordan.
Why isn't Tim Duncan better than Jordan?



Maybe he is, if you think so.

You know there is no real answer to "Who is the greatest?", right?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:25 am 
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Shaq is a top 5 player and Jordan isn't? That's interesting.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:27 am 
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Nas wrote:
Shaq is a top 5 player and Jordan isn't? That's interesting.



You don't think Shaq was a great player? Did he do anything Jordan couldn't do?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:28 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
JORR,
What is the dividing line?

Is Jordan the 4th best player ever?



I'd have him around sixth. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Magic, Jordan.
Why isn't Tim Duncan better than Jordan?



Maybe he is, if you think so.

You know there is no real answer to "Who is the greatest?", right?
I'm trying to use your criteria. Tim Duncan pretty much has to be on that list above Jordan and Magic. Hakeem too.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:30 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Shaq is a top 5 player and Jordan isn't? That's interesting.



You don't think Shaq was a great player? Did he do anything Jordan couldn't do?


What do you think?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:30 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
The funny thing to me is JORR loves to insist on how overrated Pippen was. Guess Pip and MJ should be thankful they had guys like Luc and Cartwright to carry them to six titles. :lol:



The funnier thing is in an argument when the Bulls fan is advocating for Jordan he'll talk about how Michael had to "do it himself". In the next argument when he is insisting some Bulls team was the best ever he will be telling you how great Pippen and Rodman were.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:32 am 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Shaq is a top 5 player and Jordan isn't? That's interesting.



You don't think Shaq was a great player? Did he do anything Jordan couldn't do?


What do you think?


Yeah, I think seven footers are capable of performing important aspects of the game that no 6'6" guy, no matter how great, has ever been able to do.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:33 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Yeah, I think seven footers are capable of performing important aspects of the game that no 6'6" guy, no matter how great, has ever been able to do.
Yeah. Shaq could play all 5 positions.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:35 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
JORR,
What is the dividing line?

Is Jordan the 4th best player ever?



I'd have him around sixth. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Magic, Jordan.
Why isn't Tim Duncan better than Jordan?



Maybe he is, if you think so.

You know there is no real answer to "Who is the greatest?", right?
I'm trying to use your criteria. Tim Duncan pretty much has to be on that list above Jordan and Magic. Hakeem too.


I won't argue if you want to put Hakeem ahead of Jordan. I think putting Duncan that high is a mistake, but this is all subjective anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:36 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Yeah, I think seven footers are capable of performing important aspects of the game that no 6'6" guy, no matter how great, has ever been able to do.
Yeah. Shaq could play all 5 positions.



Why would he need to play all five positions? I guess you think Bert Campaneris was greater than Ted Williams, too.

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