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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:32 pm 
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I think it's more the teams that signed the criminals were willing to take the flak because they felt those players were still good enough to help them win. Teams don't feel that about Kaep to take that hit for someone who would be a back up.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Nas wrote:

I understand it but it's still odd. "We want criminals, but have no use for silent protestors."


No one bitches to the league or refuses to watch when criminals play. Only when the flag is disrespected.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
The point is simply that no one black would ever get the chances Fitzpatrick has gotten
How can you say that though? Who is a good example of a guy who should have gotten the chances that Fitzpatrick got? Let's use a guy like Bryon Leftwich. He got 5 chances(2 with the same team). Ryan Fitzpatrick has gotten 6 chances, though with Fitzpatrick he spent his first two chances just trying to prove he was an NFL quarterback with barely any playing time until the last season with his second team. Fitzpatrick also has 3 seasons better than anything Leftwich ever did, with another two seasons that would be comparable to Leftwich's career years.

I think there's a decent chance an equivalent black quarterback out of college doesn't even get drafted or is out of the league within Fitzpatrick's first 3 seasons. It took him 10 years to be the quarterback on a team with a winning record and I definitely think at the very latest he would've been bounced from Buffalo by the start of 2012. This doesn't even get into the backup roles he's been offered.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:40 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Vick bounced around plenty toward the end getting chances to be a backup. He was last seen holding a clip board here in Pittsburgh a couple years ago. There is one example to offset Fitzpatrick. Can we move on?

Vicks's an excellent example to bring up and he's only started one game less than Fitzpatrick. So we can add him to the list and say you have to have been as good as Moon, Cunningham, McNair, McNabb, or now Vick.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:48 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
I think there's a decent chance an equivalent black quarterback out of college doesn't even get drafted or is out of the league within Fitzpatrick's first 3 seasons. It took him 10 years to be the quarterback on a team with a winning record and I definitely think at the very latest he would've been bounced from Buffalo by the start of 2012. This doesn't even get into the backup roles he's been offered.
That's because the odds of any undrafted quarterback having a meaningful career is very low. Even the far superior Kurt Warner and Warren Moon had to go to other leagues while Fitzpatrick didn't.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Buffalo Bills are world renowned for creating Fitzpatrick-esque QB's in this league. Tyrod Taylor, EJ Manuel, Cardale Jones... Bills are the backup QB feeder system.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Buffalo Bills are world renowned for creating Fitzpatrick-esque QB's in this league. Tyrod Taylor, EJ Manuel, Cardale Jones... Bills are the backup QB feeder system.


ZephMarshack has to google a little more than he has and let the Fitz thing go. There have been many black qbs and many more to come. There are a ton of factors affecting backup choices. Just look at Cutler. It took an injury to a starter and the head coach has a personal connection. Batch sat here for a decade because the team loved him and they knew he would barely have to play. So many teams have so many weird things that go on that you cannot just say the one black guy is getting screwed over.

Maybe the best comeback story of all time is the black qb Doug Williams being on the scrapheap and being Super Bowl MVP for Washington.

Also my previously mentioned Vince Evans that everyone knew was bad overall played for the Raiders for like 15 years as a backup.

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Last edited by pittmike on Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
I think there's a decent chance an equivalent black quarterback out of college doesn't even get drafted or is out of the league within Fitzpatrick's first 3 seasons. It took him 10 years to be the quarterback on a team with a winning record and I definitely think at the very latest he would've been bounced from Buffalo by the start of 2012. This doesn't even get into the backup roles he's been offered.
That's because the odds of any undrafted quarterback having a meaningful career is very low. Even the far superior Kurt Warner and Warren Moon had to go to other leagues while Fitzpatrick didn't.

Correct and I'd say black quarterbacks are more likely to go undrafted than equivalently talented white ones and they're also more likely to be out of the league quicker as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:06 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
ZephMarshack has to google a little more than he has and let the Fitz thing go. There have been many black qbs and many more to come. There are a ton of factors affecting backup choices. Just look at Cutler. It took an injury to a starter and the head coach has a personal connection. Batch sat here for a decade because the team loved him and they knew he would barely have to play. So many teams have so many weird things that go on that you cannot just say the one black guy is getting screwed over.

This is completely non-responsive to anything I've said.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:07 pm 
conns7901 wrote:
Nas wrote:

I understand it but it's still odd. "We want criminals, but have no use for silent protestors."


No one bitches to the league or refuses to watch when criminals play. Only when the flag is disrespected.

People who say they have watched one minute less of NFL football because Kaep took a knee are full of shit.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:12 pm 
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I agree . People are very loyal to their favorite TV shows

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:13 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
I agree . People are very loyal to their favorite TV shows


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:15 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
I think there's a decent chance an equivalent black quarterback out of college doesn't even get drafted or is out of the league within Fitzpatrick's first 3 seasons. It took him 10 years to be the quarterback on a team with a winning record and I definitely think at the very latest he would've been bounced from Buffalo by the start of 2012. This doesn't even get into the backup roles he's been offered.
That's because the odds of any undrafted quarterback having a meaningful career is very low. Even the far superior Kurt Warner and Warren Moon had to go to other leagues while Fitzpatrick didn't.

Correct and I'd say black quarterbacks are more likely to go undrafted than equivalently talented white ones and they're also more likely to be out of the league quicker as well.

Maybe, but that is a lot different than what was said earlier.

Ironically, in football, for most opinions, the opposite is true.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Maybe, but that is a lot different than what was said earlier.

Ironically, in football, for most opinions, the opposite is true.

It doesn't contradict anything I said earlier either though and is completely consistent with the idea that there are different standards applied based on race at that position.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:30 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Maybe, but that is a lot different than what was said earlier.

Ironically, in football, for most opinions, the opposite is true.

It doesn't contradict anything I said earlier either though and is completely consistent with the idea that there are different standards applied based on race at that position.

It's also far different than this:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Ryan Fitzpatrick has more career starts than every black quarterback outside of Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, and Steve McNair. So yes, one only needs to be as good as one of those guys to have a long career in the league akin to Fitzpatrick's.

...which to me sounds like you are making the case that in order for a black player to last as long as Ryan Fitzpatrick they have to be a hall of famer or a near hall of famer.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Maybe, but that is a lot different than what was said earlier.

Ironically, in football, for most opinions, the opposite is true.

It doesn't contradict anything I said earlier either though and is completely consistent with the idea that there are different standards applied based on race at that position.

It's also far different than this:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Ryan Fitzpatrick has more career starts than every black quarterback outside of Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, and Steve McNair. So yes, one only needs to be as good as one of those guys to have a long career in the league akin to Fitzpatrick's.

...which to me sounds like you are making the case that in order for a black player to last as long as Ryan Fitzpatrick they have to be a hall of famer or a near hall of famer.

Not really that different and completely consistent with everything I've been saying. Any kind of career resembling Fitzpatrick's is an impossibility for a black quarterback precisely because of the different standards they are held to,from the drafting and scouting phase all the way down the number of chances he's gotten. Fitzblacktrick probably goes undrafted, is potentially out of the league within his first 2 years, doesn't start as long in Buffalo and probably doesn't get the same backup opportunities after his performances there. The stat is the stat; only black quarterbacks as good as those 4 have started more games.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:50 pm 
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You are literally saying you have to nearly be a hall of famer as a black quarterback to last as long as Ryan Fitzpatrick. That is significantly stronger of a statement than saying they are "more likely to go undrafted that equivalently talented white ones and they're also more likely to be out of the league quicker".

As I pointed out, someone like Byron Leftwich got 5 chances. Many other quarterbacks hung around the league for 10+ years and many of those didn't have the "good seasons" that Fitzpatrick had.

I mean, I guess I could be taking what you are saying as a stronger statement than you are actually attempting to make but I don't really think it is fair to make a point that being a black quarterback is significantly more difficult because of one of the strangest careers in NFL history with a guy who kind of sucks but still found a way to keep getting on the field.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You are literally saying you have to nearly be a hall of famer as a black quarterback to last as long as Ryan Fitzpatrick. That is significantly stronger of a statement than saying they are "more likely to go undrafted that equivalently talented white ones and they're also more likely to be out of the league quicker".

As I pointed out, someone like Byron Leftwich got 5 chances. Many other quarterbacks hung around the league for 10+ years and many of those didn't have the "good seasons" that Fitzpatrick had.

I mean, I guess I could be taking what you are saying as a stronger statement than you are actually attempting to make but I don't really think it is fair to make a point that being a black quarterback is significantly more difficult because of one of the strangest careers in NFL history with a guy who kind of sucks but still found a way to keep getting on the field.

I'm using Fitzpatrick as an example, but I've cited other quarterbacks and of course an actual study that found race was a predictor of a quarterback being benched controlling for everything else. You keep wanting to treat Fitzpatrick as some kind of huge anomaly but I would maintain that his race was an insufficient but absolutely necessary condition for his career to have transpired the way that it has.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:13 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
I'm using Fitzpatrick as an example, but I've cited other quarterbacks and of course an actual study that found race was a predictor of a quarterback being benched controlling for everything else. You keep wanting to treat Fitzpatrick as some kind of huge anomaly but I would maintain that his race was an insufficient but absolutely necessary condition for his career to have transpired the way that it has.
That's because Fitzpatrick IS a huge anomaly! I'd argue that Fitzpatrick's career is more unlikely than Tom Brady and how his career has gone.

I do enjoy you using the hypothetical qb card. :lol: It's been a while for that.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:23 pm 
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Rick, which parts of the study that he posted did you disagree with?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:29 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Rick, which parts of the study that he posted did you disagree with?
I didn't disagree with the study. I am sure a bias exists.

I just don't think you have to be a near hall of famer to have a successful journeyman career where you are given multiple chances to succeed.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Rick, which parts of the study that he posted did you disagree with?
I didn't disagree with the study. I am sure a bias exists.

I just don't think you have to be a near hall of famer to have a successful journeyman career where you are given multiple chances to succeed.

Oh ok. So you essentially agree with Zeph and just didn't like the Fitzpatrick example?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:40 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Rick, which parts of the study that he posted did you disagree with?
I didn't disagree with the study. I am sure a bias exists.

I just don't think you have to be a near hall of famer to have a successful journeyman career where you are given multiple chances to succeed.

Oh ok. So you essentially agree with Zeph and just didn't like the Fitzpatrick example?
I agree there is a bias.

I either misread how much bias he believes there is or I don't agree it is near to the level that he is saying it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:42 pm 
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You may have to limit my opinion to the last 10-15 years but I do not think there is a bias against blacks playing qb in the NFL. Maybe in HS and college there still is some attempt to funnel kids to other positions but if there is a black QB that was a complete stud any NFL coach will play him. It is not your dad's NFL anymore.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:09 am 
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Jay Mohr‏Verified account @jaymohr37 6m6 minutes ago
More
. @RealSkipBayless was your inside source @BleacherReport yesterday? HOT TAKE!
#mohrstories



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:14 am 
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Listen to "Jonathan Hood on Colin Kaepernick 8-8-17" by Jonathan Hood via #spreaker https://www.spreaker.com/user/jhood/jon ... ick-8-8-17

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:29 am 
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Nas wrote:
Listen to "Jonathan Hood on Colin Kaepernick 8-8-17" by Jonathan Hood via #spreaker https://www.spreaker.com/user/jhood/jon ... ick-8-8-17


Does your cousin make money per listen?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:39 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Nas wrote:
Listen to "Jonathan Hood on Colin Kaepernick 8-8-17" by Jonathan Hood via #spreaker https://www.spreaker.com/user/jhood/jon ... ick-8-8-17


Does your cousin make money per listen?


I don't know how he makes money.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:49 am 
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Nas wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Nas wrote:
Listen to "Jonathan Hood on Colin Kaepernick 8-8-17" by Jonathan Hood via #spreaker https://www.spreaker.com/user/jhood/jon ... ick-8-8-17


Does your cousin make money per listen?


I don't know how he makes money.

Id subscribe to a podcast of him doing exaggerated impressions. He's great at those.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:54 am 
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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/colin-kaepernick-is-not-supposed-to-be-unemployed/

As Colin Kaepernick’s job hunt has crept into training camp, the parameters of debate have shifted. Just a few months ago, the contention was over whether or not Kaepernick was good enough to play in the league. That no longer seems to be the case. Last week, reports circulated that Baltimore Ravens head coach John Harbaugh and general manager Ozzie Newsome were both interested in signing Kaepernick, but were met with resistance by owner Steve Bisciotti, who framed hesitance over signing Kaepernick as a PR concern.

“Your opinions matter to us,” Bisciotti said at a fan event, referring to fan opinion over Kaepernick. “We’re very sensitive to it, and we’re monitoring it, and we’re still, as Ozzie says, scrimmaging it, and we’re trying to figure out what’s the right tact. So pray for us.”

Kaepernick’s ability to play the position no longer seems to be in doubt. Players have spoken in support of Kaepernick, and most serious analysis reliant on game study arrives at the conclusion that Kaepernick is not just a competent quarterback, but is also better than he was when he led the 49ers to the Super Bowl in 2013. Cian Fahey, who catalogues quarterback performance at Pre-Snap Reads, found Kaepernick to have outplayed Ravens starter Joe Flacco.

And yet Kaepernick doesn’t have a team. It’s obvious Kaepernick is being frozen out for his political opinions, but it’s less apparent how extraordinary it is that a player like him can’t find a team. Back in March, Neil Paine and I wrote about Kaepernick’s situation and noted that it was strange for even a halfway decent quarterback to remain unsigned so deep into free agency. Four months later, it’s no longer merely unusual — it’s practically unheard of.

Here are the free agent quarterbacks from the past five offseasons, charted by their Total Quarterback Rating in the previous season and how many days they remained in free agency before being signed by a team. (The size of the dots represent the number of pass attempts.)


Image

No above-average quarterback has been unemployed nearly as long as Kaepernick this offseason. The most comparable scenario — Ryan Fitzpatrick’s contract showdown with the New York Jets last offseason — isn’t really comparable at all, since Fitzpatrick was the one exerting leverage over the team, not the other way around.

It’s easy to lose sight of the reality that good quarterbacks often never even reach free agency, let alone remain unsigned for so long. That’s especially the case for our discussion of Kaepernick, which has shifted from his merit as a player to concern-trolling and a consideration of business practicalities. So while Kaepernick is clearly an outlier on the chart above, the fact that he’s on it at all should be just as surprising.

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