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The difference between Jordan and "the others"
http://chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=106969		 Page 5 of 11
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
And if you're taking such a position, it's obviously because you're obsessed with Jordan.

You do realize there are many people who consider Jordan the greatest of all time who are not and were not Bull fans. Hell even many players consider him the greatest. You make it sound like the only people who consider him the greatest are fan boys who grew up with bulls posters on their bedroom walls.



Among the guys I'm currently discussing it with, that's a fact.

The guys you're throwing out there weren't two way players. The case for Jordan is he's the greatest scorer in the history of the league, was the most dominant two way player of his era, proved with seasons like '87 that he can stuff the stat sheet if that was his only goal, and was 6-0 in the Finals and was the best player on each title team(as recognized by 6 Finals MVPs, an accomplishment not seen since the days of only 8-10 teams in the entire league and not likely to be seen again for a long time.
Author:  Brick [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'll say Wilt. Here's the criteria- he scored and rebounded more than Jordan.
Wilt and Jordan have the same career scoring average. Jordan has more assists. Unfortunately, Wilt played in an era where many of his statistics weren't kept so all we can do is points, assists and rebounds.

So, I'll ask you this question. Did you ever remember anyone saying "Jordan is pretty good, but he just doesn't get enough rebounds!"? That is honestly what just about every critique of Jordan boils down to no matter who the player is.



Chamberlain lead the league in assists at least once.
So what? Jordan has a higher career average. If we really want to go down this road, Wilt had one season where he had 8.6 and Jordan had one where he had 8.0. Jordan also did that playing 6 less minutes a game.

So, once again, did you every hear anyone complain that Jordan didn't get enough rebounds?
Author:  Nas [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
JORR,
Who is your GOAT and why?


And don't know that there is a guy that can just be declared the GREATEST OF ALL TIME. If there is such a thing I'm sure it's a center. I could make a good argument that Magic is the greatest non-center ever and an equally good one that it's Robertson or Jordan.

You've had ample time on this board over the years and yet haven't made such a case. I think you've tried and when you came up short you blamed it on the rest of the board being obsessed with Jordan



Every Bulls fan who was between 10 and 30 during the Jordan years is obsessed with him. But I think I have made a legitimate argument in the past. Magic was responsible for more points than Jordan between assists and his own scoring. He was a better rebounder and he even had to take over at center in a finals game. It's not like Jordan is the greatest and it was handed down on stone tablets and can't be reasonably argued. And if you're taking such a position, it's obviously because you're obsessed with Jordan.


6-0 > 5-4


Were they playing one on one? If so, please tell LTG that Kyrie Irving doesn't count.


Kareem was the best player on the Lakers for a while. Besided we define greatness by winning in most sports. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't call Brady the best QB ever.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
JORR,
Who is your GOAT and why?


And don't know that there is a guy that can just be declared the GREATEST OF ALL TIME. If there is such a thing I'm sure it's a center. I could make a good argument that Magic is the greatest non-center ever and an equally good one that it's Robertson or Jordan.

You've had ample time on this board over the years and yet haven't made such a case. I think you've tried and when you came up short you blamed it on the rest of the board being obsessed with Jordan



Every Bulls fan who was between 10 and 30 during the Jordan years is obsessed with him. But I think I have made a legitimate argument in the past. Magic was responsible for more points than Jordan between assists and his own scoring. He was a better rebounder and he even had to take over at center in a finals game. It's not like Jordan is the greatest and it was handed down on stone tablets and can't be reasonably argued. And if you're taking such a position, it's obviously because you're obsessed with Jordan.


6-0 > 5-4


Were they playing one on one?

You getting ready to make the case Jordan's teammates were better than Magic's? :lol:
Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
FavreFan wrote:
The guys you're throwing out there weren't two way players.


That's not true.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
The guys you're throwing out there weren't two way players.


That's not true.

Of course it is. You cant find anyone who thinks Magic Johnson was a good defensive player.
Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
FavreFan wrote:
You getting ready to make the case Jordan's teammates were better than Magic's? :lol:


Absolutely not. It's the Bulls fan that vacillates between Magic having more help and Pippen being better than Worthy. Not me.
Author:  long time guy [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
JORR,
Who is your GOAT and why?


And don't know that there is a guy that can just be declared the GREATEST OF ALL TIME. If there is such a thing I'm sure it's a center. I could make a good argument that Magic is the greatest non-center ever and an equally good one that it's Robertson or Jordan.

You've had ample time on this board over the years and yet haven't made such a case. I think you've tried and when you came up short you blamed it on the rest of the board being obsessed with Jordan



Every Bulls fan who was between 10 and 30 during the Jordan years is obsessed with him. But I think I have made a legitimate argument in the past. Magic was responsible for more points than Jordan between assists and his own scoring. He was a better rebounder and he even had to take over at center in a finals game. It's not like Jordan is the greatest and it was handed down on stone tablets and can't be reasonably argued. And if you're taking such a position, it's obviously because you're obsessed with Jordan.


6-0 > 5-4


Were they playing one on one? If so, please tell LTG that Kyrie Irving doesn't count.



Was Lebron playing 1 on 5? It seems that you had no problem making that assertion. You wouldn't be the first though. It is necessary for this premise to be everpresent in order to keep him in the GOAT discussion
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
You getting ready to make the case Jordan's teammates were better than Magic's? :lol:


Absolutely not. It's the Bulls fan that vacillates between Magic having more help and Pippen being better than Worthy. Not me.

If you think Worthy is better than Pippen and we compare the centers for the Bulls and Lakers your Magic > Jordan argument falls apart very quickly. That's why it's amusing to hear you complain about the flip-flopping for convenience of argument.
Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
The guys you're throwing out there weren't two way players.


That's not true.

Of course it is. You cant find anyone who thinks Magic Johnson was a good defensive player.


He could reasonably defend every position on the floor. No, he wasn't a lockdown guy the way Pippen was. And Chamberlain and Robertson were defensive forces. Not to mention LeBron.
Author:  RFDC [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Jordan was one of the premier defenders in the league for a decade. LeBron was for 3-4 years. LeBron got absolutely lit up this Finals when guarding Durant and hasn't been a great defensive player for years, despite the occasional highlight block.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.

In JORR's world Magic had two teammates better than Pippen, but Magic's 5-4 Finals record is better than Jordan's 6-0 Finals record because Pippen was also the best player on three of those Finals teams. And to top it off, he claims Jordan supporters are inconsistent in their analysis. This is great.
Author:  TurdFerguson [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
I always felt Bron lost the potential of having the goat title year 1 in Miami. They lost after already having a championship celebration. When talking GOAT, margins are so slim, unless he ran off something like 10 titles, you can't make up that loss.

Every Bulls team beats the Mavs in 6 or less.

Take Jordan from any championship team and put him on the Heat and they take care of the Mavs. I welcome someone creating a narrative that Dirk defeats Jordan in 7 where he gets a combination of Bosch and Wade, or Pippen.
Author:  Nas [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.


Magic was a good team defender but he couldn't guard a man in a wheelchair.
Author:  Hatchetman [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
FavreFan wrote:
[
In JORR's world Magic had two teammates better than Pippen, but Magic's 5-4 Finals record is better than Jordan's 6-0 Finals record because Pippen was also the best player on three of those Finals teams. And to top it off, he claims Jordan supporters are inconsistent in their analysis. This is great.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  long time guy [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
The guys you're throwing out there weren't two way players.


That's not true.

Of course it is. You cant find anyone who thinks Magic Johnson was a good defensive player.


He could reasonably defend every position on the floor. No, he wasn't a lockdown guy the way Pippen was. And Chamberlain and Robertson were defensive forces. Not to mention LeBron.



Two things jump out against Lebron.

1. He has always had a great scorer during each of his championships


2. Third time that a guy that he guards has won the MVP award. (during the Finals)
Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.



Except he did just that and produced more points than anyone he was guarding.
Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
FavreFan wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.

In JORR's world Magic had two teammates better than Pippen, but Magic's 5-4 Finals record is better than Jordan's 6-0 Finals record because Pippen was also the best player on three of those Finals teams. And to top it off, he claims Jordan supporters are inconsistent in their analysis. This is great.



Did Jordan and Pippen ever have to deal with the Celtics? That might have something to do with "Magic's 5-4 record".
Author:  Nas [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.



Except he did just that and produced more points than anyone he was guarding.


Isaiah Thomas
Author:  Nas [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.

In JORR's world Magic had two teammates better than Pippen, but Magic's 5-4 Finals record is better than Jordan's 6-0 Finals record because Pippen was also the best player on three of those Finals teams. And to top it off, he claims Jordan supporters are inconsistent in their analysis. This is great.



Did Jordan and Pippen ever have to deal with the Celtics? That might have something to do with "Magic's 5-4 record".


There is a Philly defeat in there.
Author:  Brick [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Here is also what all but eliminates Wilt as the GOAT.
22.5 points per game in the playoffs. I don't care how many rebounds you have but you can't be the GOAT with that production.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.

In JORR's world Magic had two teammates better than Pippen, but Magic's 5-4 Finals record is better than Jordan's 6-0 Finals record because Pippen was also the best player on three of those Finals teams. And to top it off, he claims Jordan supporters are inconsistent in their analysis. This is great.



Did Jordan and Pippen ever have to deal with the Celtics? That might have something to do with "Magic's 5-4 record".

No, he dealt with a bunch of different teams that had a lot of hall of famers between them. Teams can't control who their competition is. Destroying every potential rival is part of Jordan's greatness. It's a feature, not a bug, when compared to Magic.
Author:  Regular Reader [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Here is also what all but eliminates Wilt as the GOAT.
22.5 points per game in the playoffs. I don't care how many rebounds you have but you can't be the GOAT with that production.


Playing an all-time team with at least 4-5 Hall of Famers tempers that argument.

Plus off the top of my head, he had Chet Walker & who else?
Author:  Regular Reader [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He could reasonably defend every position on the floor.

You have done lost your flipping mind.

In JORR's world Magic had two teammates better than Pippen, but Magic's 5-4 Finals record is better than Jordan's 6-0 Finals record because Pippen was also the best player on three of those Finals teams. And to top it off, he claims Jordan supporters are inconsistent in their analysis. This is great.



Did Jordan and Pippen ever have to deal with the Celtics? That might have something to do with "Magic's 5-4 record".


There is a Philly sweep in there.



Fixed.
Author:  formerlyknownas [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Regular Reader wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Here is also what all but eliminates Wilt as the GOAT.
22.5 points per game in the playoffs. I don't care how many rebounds you have but you can't be the GOAT with that production.


Playing an all-time team with at least 4-5 Hall of Famers tempers that argument.

Plus off the top of my head, he had Chet Walker & who else?

Billy Cunningham, but he was young
Author:  Brick [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Regular Reader wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Here is also what all but eliminates Wilt as the GOAT.
22.5 points per game in the playoffs. I don't care how many rebounds you have but you can't be the GOAT with that production.


Playing an all-time team with at least 4-5 Hall of Famers tempers that argument.

Plus off the top of my head, he had Chet Walker & who else?
It looks like that the Celtics games don't really explain that remarkably low playoff scoring average.
Author:  leashyourkids [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
I'm genuinely sad that I missed this thread.
Author:  formerlyknownas [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Here is also what all but eliminates Wilt as the GOAT.
22.5 points per game in the playoffs. I don't care how many rebounds you have but you can't be the GOAT with that production.


Playing an all-time team with at least 4-5 Hall of Famers tempers that argument.

Plus off the top of my head, he had Chet Walker & who else?
It looks like that the Celtics games don't really explain that remarkably low playoff scoring average.

He changed as a player, though, in his later years. He didn't need to score with West and Goodrich. Still a monster on the boards, and he passed much more. Not saying he was the greatest, but he deliberately changed his game.
Author:  leashyourkids [ Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The difference between Jordan and "the others"
What old man JORR forgets is that the Bulls had the best record in NBA history AND won the title. They were historically good. As such, it is absolutely possible to simultaneously think Jordan is GOAT and that Scottie Pippen was one of the greatest of all-time too. JORR, you act like those statements are mutually exclusive, but they're not. They're arguably the best duo ever.

What I will agree with you on is the perceived infallibility of Jordan by some. There was not a more loyal MJ fan on this planet during his run than I was. I was young, but I think that only added to the mystique. I loved him, and I watched every minute of every game he played during the second threepeat...

That said, there is a decent argument to be made that Lebron is as good as Jordan. I don't personally agree with it, and I think making the argument that he's better would be really tough, but it's not absurd. What Lebron has done is nothing short of amazing. The expectations for this guy were off the chart as a teenager, and he has single-handedly kept the East from becoming a laughing stock. If Lebron James didn't headline these past few teams in the East, the NBA would be embarrassingly lopsided. Basically, any team he is on is coming out of the East. And there's no way you can convince me that exchanging a 32-year-old Lebron for a 32-year-old Jordan (he was 32 in '96 and Lebron has more miles) would have affected the outcome. I believe Jordan to be the GOAT, but it's nonsense to act like there's no argument.

All-in-all, JORR is primarily wrong, as usual, but he is partially correct on that one facet of the argument.
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