Take LBJ off the Cavs and they aren't going anywhere. Take Irving off the Cavs and they are definitely not beating GS or maybe Boston, but they'll be a competitive playoff team. That's the difference. Same with the others. LBJ needs Wade, Bosh, etc. to make the finals. But they need LBJ to actually win the finals.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Wade demonstrated he could win one without James but I get your point. James makes teams better. I'd be an idiot (which I probably am anyway) to argue that. He has played with some pretty good wingmen over the years though. Not enough credit is ever given to them. Kyrie Irving was the player that turned that G.S series around last season. Not James. He also turned game 4 against Boston around.

I think that there is this incessant need to compare He and Jordan all the time. Not that you are doing it. Moreso the media and I think it does him a disservice at times. Jordan was dominant so much more of the time. James has been dominant but when you talk about consistently being the dominant player Jordan was that every year he played until he was in his mid 30's.

_________________

Ltg already handled this but no, Wade did not need LeBron to win a ring.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I don't know. Let's say LBJ is 0-8 in the finals when he retires and Dirk stays 1-1. Is Dirk greater than LBJ because of that one title? I don't think so. The rate at which LBJ makes the finals says a lot about his dominance. Jimmy is right to point out others made the finals more than LBJ, but we're talking here and now. I think he's the most dominant player of the post-Lakers Shaq era even though he isn't winning every year (assuming "dominant" means winning). I don't say this if he's bowing out in the third or second round every year.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Im not even sure what is being debated here. LeBron is an all time great player. Everybody here acknowledges that. I can't say best of his era because his era intersected with Duncan but nobody is saying he isn't great and nobody is saying he's the greatest ever. Not sure what we are even discussing.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Wade won with a still serviceable Shaq. Then he didn't do anything for five years until he got together with LBJ and Bosh. During the same time, LBJ went to the finals pre-Heat with no one on his team of note. Drew Gooden was the second leading scorer during the finals in 2007 for the Cavs. Think about that. At the same time, Wade's Heat were irrelevant. LBJ did better than Wade when both were the respective alpha dogs on their teams.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Four years and I'm guessing without googling you couldn't name one of Wade's teammates from 2008-2009 except probably Haslem, an ok rotation player.

But that's sort of the point. LeBron ditching his team twice to accomplish this amazing feat of 7 straight Finals definitely hurts the accomplishment. What other all time great switched teams twice in his prime? Shaq is the only one that comes to mind and I don't think he was still in his prime when he went to Miami.

Edit: your last sentence is not true. Wade put up great numbers and won a ring as unequivocally the best player on a championship team. If their careers ended in 2010 it would be difficult to make a case LeBron had the better career.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Wade's teams sucked too but his teams weren't contenders like LBJ's teams were.

I'm not cool with the free agency stuff but the league's in a different place than it was back in the '80s or '70s. First of all you've got more teams. This means talent is spread thinner throughout the league. I'd love to really measure this but without looking at the data I'd guess that on average the composition of a given team in the 1980s is quantitatively better than a given team from the current period. So perhaps the other side of the argument is rather than fall victim to flattening forces of modern day NBA parity, which may exist in large part due to teams existing in NBA wastelands like Charlotte, LBJ and those guys tried to better control their own destiny. Again I don't support it but it's a different challenge than the earlier guys had.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Agreed. With James and his accomplishments caveats have to be included. He doesn't return to Cleveland if Tristan Thompson is the best player. If simply having him ensures that a team will go the Finals then why leave after being bounced in the 2nd round. James was and is the best player on every team that he has played on bit truth be told it could be argued that Wade was the better player the first couple of years in Miami.

My issue is that on some small level I've felt that he is a tad overrated. By that I mean that there shouldn't be a conversation for GOAT. Not just with Jordan either. He isn't #2 either. He is in the conversation for top 5. He is in that 5-10 range.

_________________

Shaq averaged 23, 10 and 2 blocks during that year and still commanded double and triple teams. Not to take anything away from Wade but it's very easy to excel when you have Shaq playing at that kind of level. LBJ had no one near Shaq's skill level and yet took the Cavs to the finals by himself. Wade didn't even get to the ECF after Shaq until LBJ and Bosh signed up.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I think you're going a bit heavy on how much of a "contender" LeBron's original Cavs team was. He made one Finals trip and got swept, and one other conference finals. Wade made a conference finals and the next year won an nba title.

I don't know what your paragraph means there. I don't know how much of a "challenge" it is to go find 2 other All Stars and decide to play with them because you don't like the current team you are on.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Shaq didn't draw triple teams in Miami

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He did from time to time, especially if a team had no legitimate centers. Point is Wade had a high caliber teammate helping him win his first ring. LBJ's best teammate during those years couldn't even average 23/10/2 on NBA Live.

LBJ's teams were contenders before he left for the Heat. Like you said, he made the finals, made the ECF, and generally the pressure was on him to win and for Cleveland to acquire someone who would help LBJ take the team to the next level. Miami was a disaster after Shaq left and Wade put up good numbers. The best he did was go 47-35.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I agree. I would take Duncan over LeBron and it honestly wouldn't be a hard decision. LeBron's numbers are better but Duncan had great numbers also, was easily a better teammate, was better than his numbers suggested, always showed up in big games(game 7 of the 2005 Finals being his masterpiece), and instead of leaving the team he was drafted by in his prime he was the driving force behind them turning it into the model franchise of the entire NBA

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The talent dispersement throughout the league in theory should make it easier for great players to win since the level of competition is not as fierce. There shouldn't be a need to form basketball conglomerates with this being the case. That is why I give guys like James and Durant flack. It detracts from their legacies when they play the game of NBA vagabond. They don't care obviously but when people start talking about winning and all time greatness it should be a part of the discussion.

_________________

I think it's funny that you keep saying 23/10/2 like it's an all time great stat line. That's a run on the mill All Star, not a legendary player like 2000 Shaq was. LeBron didn't have a teammate that good but if you take the 3-12 guys from 2006 Miami and the 3-12 guys for the 2010 Cavs I doubt you find much of a difference.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The other side of the equation is that your own team sucks too.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I would too. Duncan is the most underrated player of the past 35 years. Look at his teammates during those early 2000's Spurs teams. I know you do because you're a fan but he was staring down Kobe and Shaq and beating them. Look at the starting 5's on some of those teams. Avery Johnson. Bruce Bowen. Danny Ferry was key reserve. Collection of bums for the most part.

_________________

23/10/2 is right around Duncan's career stat line. I never said he was the beast he was in LA, just that Wade had a damn good "sidekick". And at times, Shaq still had enough in the tank to be the alpha. I just want to make my argument clear:

You said Wade didn't need LBJ to win a ring. Once Shaq left Miami, Wade didn't have as much "success" as LBJ did, so one could make the argument that Wade was more in need of a LBJ than vice versa. If LBJ stays in Cleveland and they somehow manage to sign...let's say Dwight Howard or Pau Gasol, then the Cavs probably go to the finals and Wade continues to put up good stats on a 45 win team.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

It wasn't just Shaq leaving but the fact that Shaq leaving illustrated just how thin that 2006 team was.

Both guys played with an All Star Center. Wade won a title. LeBron didn't.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I assume you mean LBJ's "all-star" center was either the indomitable Zydrunas Ilgauskas or the towering 6'5 Ben Wallace? Good talk.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

It's too bad one of the many times LeBron quit in the playoffs was in 2009 when he should've met Kobe in the Finals but instead bowed out to Dwight fucking Howard and a bunch of nobodies

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Dodge and deflect

Numbers not looking too good for Wade after he lost the luxury of an All-NBA teammate.

LBJ:

2006-07: 50-32, lost in finals
Top 3 teammates (statistically): Zydrunas Illgauskas, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden

2007-08: 45-37, lost in second round
Zydrunas Illgauskas, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden

2008-09: 66-16, lost in ECF
Zydrunas Illgauskas, Moe Williams, Delonte West

2009-10: 61-21, lost in second round
Zydrunas Illgauskas, Moe Williams, Shaq

Wade:

2006-07: 44-38, lost in first round
Haslem, Jason Williams, Shaq

2007-08: 15-67
Haslem, Ricky Davis, Shaq

2008-09: 43-39, lost in first round
Marion, Haslem, Chalmers

2009-10: 47-35, lost in first round
Michael Beasley, Jermaine Oneal, Haslem


With similar scraps for teammates LBJ's teams vastly outperformed Wade's teams. Maybe the narrative should be more like why did Wade need to recruit all-world players to the Heat? Shouldn't he have done it alone? Maybe he realized he couldn't....

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

He already proved he could win a title as the main guy. That's why the narrative was what it was. You know this though

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He wasn't the main guy though. Shaq was still All-NBA when he was the Heat. The importance of Shaq is demonstrated by the Heat's piss poor records once injuries caught up to him. They were swept by the Bulls the very next year. Where was Wade?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Of course Wade was the main guy when the Heat won the title. Don't start getting ridiculous.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

It's clear that when LBJ and Wade had teammates of a similar caliber, LBJ's teams performed better. Wade needed him. LBJ could have won with anybody.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

LBJ couldn't win with anybody. We just thoroughly went over that.

If your main point is LeBron is/was a better player than Wade, I agree. But Wade was inarguably the best player on that Heat team, and not by a small margin. Shaq averaged 20-9 and didn't even play 30 mpg

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Forgot about that one. Turkoglu was the 2nd best player on that squad as I remember.

Another thing about that Miami team. Indiana. Paul George wasn't established and played LeBron to a standstill. Without Wade they don't beat Indiana. The narrative wasn't that of course but it just goes to show the value and quality of his teammates. They rarely get credit.

_________________

Mo Williams vs Turkuglo sounds like an even matchup.


This thread has morphed into about 4-5 sub-arguments so it's hard to keep track of what is being argued. Here's a post of yours that I'm currently arguing against:



By posting the records of the Heat and Cavs when they had similar talent levels I've argued that LBJ's teams enjoyed better success than Wade's teams. So for me it seems Wade did in fact need LBJ to win because as Shaq declined so did the Heat. Dwayne Wade has no team success to speak of outside of his partnerships with Shaq and then LBJ/Bosh. When Wade was the first, second, and third best player on his team he never won more than 40-some games. When LBJ was in a similiar position he still made the Cavs into a 60-win contender. So, yes, Wade did need LBJ to win after Shaq declined.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY