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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:43 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Yeah I also wish I could have undone the Phil Jackson era in Chicago.


Not about that. Krause had more to do with it than he did.


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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
long time guy wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
long time guy wrote:
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How can I forget how influential Krause's triangle offense was in both Chicago and LA. 11 rings is no joke. He was also instrumental in forging peace between Kobe and Shaq, and between Rodman and Rodman's brain.


Phil Jackson walked into a team that was ready to win in both situations.
The Rodman stuff is overblown. Rodman was an ass with the Bulls but they won which obscures everything.


So why did Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq have a combined zero rings before Jackson walked into their lives. And why do they each give credit to Jackson in copious interviews and self-authored books? I guess you know better than them.



I'm fairly confident than I know more than you. I watched that team from the very beginning. Phil Jackson is one of the biggest frauds going and I'm glad to see that you're a big fan. Had the benefit of coaching 3 of arguably the top 10 12 guys in history and somehow he is a genius.

The reason that Jordan had no rings is because he didn't have anyone around him during those years. Doug did a helluva job coaching that team.

That's pretty pompous to start. I'm pretty sure I'm older than you and have followed the Bulls from Norm to Artis to Reggie to MJ on. Phil was critical to the Bull's and also the Lakers success. He may be a horrible GM but that has nothing to do with his coaching in that era.



You have to define what critical happens to be. Doug Collins coached the Bulls when they were a crap team. They had Jordan and nothing else. He led them to an upset of a Cleveland team that was much better.

Phil Jackson didn't lead Jordan to trust his teammates Krause provided him with better teammates. When you look at the 4 people most instrumental to the Bulls success Jordan Pippen Krause and Jackson Jackson had the least impact.

It was not difficult to coach Michael Jordan and this notion that the Bulls won because Jackson changed Jordans thinking is garbage.

Jordan had terrible teammates early in his career and he had to dominate the ball in order for the Bulls to win. The guys he won with in 91 were nothing like the guys he won with in 87 or 88. Look at the rosters and you'll see what I'm talking about. The Bulls took off once Pippen and Grant became reliable players. Pippen becoming an all star.


The above is copied from a thread about Carmelo Anthony of all people. Creating a new thread here to continue the discussion.

It seems LTG believes the following. As is normal in LTG's NBA world, none of his conclusions are supported by his premises:

- Krause deserves more credit than PJ for the six rings
- That Kobe, Shaq, and Jordan credit Jackson for his indispensable role in both their careers and specific championship success is irrelevant because LTG knows more
- Doug Collins was a good coach who was nonetheless irrelevant because Krause mattered more, and PJ has blood on his hands for taking over for Collins after the latter was fired by...Krause
- There is no correlation with PJ walking into Chicago and LA and the NBA championships of those cities increasing by a combined 11 by the time PJ left

To me this is a textbook definition of a troll job. Jackson's role in his 11 championships as a coach is well-documented by both observers and the players themselves. Reports from players especially are what we call "primary sources," LTG, and your dismissal of those sources is where I had to check out.

Join us next week when LTG argues how Jesus Christ gets too much credit for rise and doctrines of Christianity some 2000 years ago, and how Christianity could have thrived without the help of Christ.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:45 pm 
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I think we can say one thing is for sure - Krause was a better GM than Jackson is.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:49 pm 
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I don't know who deserves more credit honestly. I do think Krause deserves more credit than he gets and Jackson deserves less than he gets though.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:52 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I don't know who deserves more credit honestly. I do think Krause deserves more credit than he gets and Jackson deserves less than he gets though.


How so? To me they equally get credit in proportion to the role they played: Krause gets credit for acquiring players that proved to be of some use to a championship squad. Jackson gets credit for optimizing the talents and skills of the players Krause acquired so they could win games and championships. Moving away from Krause, making Kobe and Shaq work when they were both 20 somethings with massive egos and competing agendas is a modern day management miracle.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:56 pm 
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I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Beardown wrote:
I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


Jackson has five more rings as a coach than Krause does as a GM. Krause was also dumped five years after he let PJ walk.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:58 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I don't know who deserves more credit honestly. I do think Krause deserves more credit than he gets and Jackson deserves less than he gets though.


How so? To me they equally get credit in proportion to the role they played: Krause gets credit for acquiring players that proved to be of some use to a championship squad. Jackson gets credit for optimizing the talents and skills of the players Krause acquired so they could win games and championships. Moving away from Krause, making Kobe and Shaq work when they were both 20 somethings with massive egos and competing agendas is a modern day management miracle.

It's just based on my perception of how both are viewed by the public and Chicago fans. Phil Jackson is widely considered the best coach of all time and Krause rarely gets mentioned as one of the best GM's of all time.

The Kobe/Shaq thing isn't really a miracle. Both of them loved eachother the first couple years there. After they won back to back titles the egos started coming out, and well, at that point Phil didn't manage it all that well.

This isn't even Spurs bias talking, but I'd easily take Popovich over Jackson any day.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:00 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Beardown wrote:
I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


Jackson has five more rings as a coach than Krause does as a GM. Krause was also dumped five years after he let PJ walk.


Well, if Krause got hired as GM of the Lakers when Phil got that coaching job, they would be tied.

And if Phil coached the Bulls after the break up, Phil would still have 6.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Beardown wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Beardown wrote:
I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


Jackson has five more rings as a coach than Krause does as a GM. Krause was also dumped five years after he let PJ walk.


Well, if Krause got hired as GM of the Lakers when Phil got that coaching job, they would be tied.

And if Phil coached the Bulls after the break up, Phil would still have 6.


That's nice conjecture, but like I said, Phil won without Krause. Krause did not win without PJ.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Beardown wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Beardown wrote:
I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


Jackson has five more rings as a coach than Krause does as a GM. Krause was also dumped five years after he let PJ walk.


Well, if Krause got hired as GM of the Lakers when Phil got that coaching job, they would be tied.

And if Phil coached the Bulls after the break up, Phil would still have 6.

Yup. Phil quits on teams and organizations and then comes back when the talent has been replenished. And during his hiatuses he tends to write books talking shit about players that have won him 5 of those 11 rings.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:09 pm 
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I'll make the argument that if Krause got the Lakers GM job when Phil went there, they'd have more than the 5 that Phil got there. They lost a couple of times when they shouldn't have.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Beardown wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Beardown wrote:
I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


Jackson has five more rings as a coach than Krause does as a GM. Krause was also dumped five years after he let PJ walk.


Well, if Krause got hired as GM of the Lakers when Phil got that coaching job, they would be tied.

And if Phil coached the Bulls after the break up, Phil would still have 6.

Do you believe that Krause had anything to do with the breakup? Also, I am on the record as supporting Krause's role in during the dynasty but his post-Jordan run was pretty horrendous.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:12 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Beardown wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Beardown wrote:
I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


Jackson has five more rings as a coach than Krause does as a GM. Krause was also dumped five years after he let PJ walk.


Well, if Krause got hired as GM of the Lakers when Phil got that coaching job, they would be tied.

And if Phil coached the Bulls after the break up, Phil would still have 6.

Yup. Phil quits on teams and organizations and then comes back when the talent has been replenished. And during his hiatuses he tends to write books talking shit about players that have won him 5 of those 11 rings.


Shaq, Kobe, and MJ love PJ.

Beardown wrote:
I'll make the argument that if Krause got the Lakers GM job when Phil went there, they'd have more than the 5 that Phil got there. They lost a couple of times when they shouldn't have.


Okay, so in make believe world, Krause has more rings than PJ, but in the real world PJ has more rings than Krause. I can agree to that.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:12 pm 
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No. Phil's ass wanted out. Jordan wanted to quit as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Both of them were arrogant jackasses with wildly over inflated senses of their own importance.

History will remember little lasting about either of them imo. And remember that Tex Winter and John Bach were more integral to the Bulls' and that The Logo put together the Lakers

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:14 pm 
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That's a stupid argument. Steve Kerr has more rings than Barkley and Ewing. 5-0. Is Kerr's cracker ass better than them?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Both of them were arrogant jackasses with wildly over inflated senses of their own importance.

History will remember little lasting about either of them imo. And remember that Tex Winter and John Bach were more integral to the Bulls' and that The Logo put together the Lakers


Winter and Bach, maybe both, followed Jackson to LA, but the narrative is PJ is the one chasing success instead of creating it. Hmm...

West put together the Lakers. They were extremely talented at one point with Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Kobe, Shaq, and a few others. Rings? Zero. Then they hire Phil and win three straight. Coincidence? Maybe they should have hired Doug Collins and almost won three rings in a row.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:19 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Beardown wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Beardown wrote:
I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


Jackson has five more rings as a coach than Krause does as a GM. Krause was also dumped five years after he let PJ walk.


Well, if Krause got hired as GM of the Lakers when Phil got that coaching job, they would be tied.

And if Phil coached the Bulls after the break up, Phil would still have 6.

Yup. Phil quits on teams and organizations and then comes back when the talent has been replenished. And during his hiatuses he tends to write books talking shit about players that have won him 5 of those 11 rings.
Nice spin but Phil was shown the door (Jerry pined for Tim Floyd) and wisely took the best open position the following season. The Lakers had somehow failed to win a championship under a well respected Dell Harris yet immediately went on a run with essentially the same team under a new coach. Not sure how that fits the narrative of "coming back when the talent has been replenished".

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
I think we can say one thing is for sure - Krause was a better GM than Jackson is.

I'd wager that, even now, Krause would be better.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:21 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
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I don't know who deserves more credit honestly. I do think Krause deserves more credit than he gets and Jackson deserves less than he gets though.


How so? To me they equally get credit in proportion to the role they played: Krause gets credit for acquiring players that proved to be of some use to a championship squad. Jackson gets credit for optimizing the talents and skills of the players Krause acquired so they could win games and championships. Moving away from Krause, making Kobe and Shaq work when they were both 20 somethings with massive egos and competing agendas is a modern day management miracle.


They don't get credited equally. Just look at the way you colored your statement. "...Players that proved to be of some use to a championship squad." Meaning every player except Jordan. Jordan could have been like a ton of other great players that never won a damn thing if Krause had not surrounded him with the right guys, including, not insignificantly, Phil "Backstabbin'" Jackson. Phil was driving the bus for the Albany Patroons and had a reputation as a flaky hippie loser when Krause pulled him off the scrap heap. And how did Phil thank Krause? By constantly petitioning Reinsdorf for Krause's job.

Phil is three things- an obnoxious pseudo-intellectual, a backstabbing phony, and a great coach of the best players in the game.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Beardown wrote:
No. Phil's ass wanted out. Jordan wanted to quit as well.

I wonder why that was :scratch:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Beardown wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Beardown wrote:
I've always said that Krause was more important than Jackson. Said it while they were winning championships.

Now it's popular to say that after Krause dies and Jackson is a dumb ass GM/President with the Knicks.

If Krause doesn't hire Jackson, Jackson is nothing. He owes his life to Krause.

Plus Phil is just a piece of shit person. Always felt that way about him. Dumped his wife when he made it big and got money, arrogant piece of shit. And pretends to be smarter than he actually is. With his Zen bullshit. He tries to sound smart but often ends up sounding stupid when he speaks.


Jackson has five more rings as a coach than Krause does as a GM. Krause was also dumped five years after he let PJ walk.


Well, if Krause got hired as GM of the Lakers when Phil got that coaching job, they would be tied.

And if Phil coached the Bulls after the break up, Phil would still have 6.

Yup. Phil quits on teams and organizations and then comes back when the talent has been replenished. And during his hiatuses he tends to write books talking shit about players that have won him 5 of those 11 rings.
Nice spin but Phil was shown the door (Jerry pined for Tim Floyd) and wisely took the best open position the following season. The Lakers had somehow failed to win a championship under a well respected Dell Harris yet immediately went on a run with essentially the same team under a new coach. Not sure how that fits the narrative of "coming back when the talent has been replenished".


That's spin right there. Phil and Jordan decided that they weren't coming back. Didn't they even nickname the season "The Last Waltz"? Of course that was Baby Boomer Phil.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
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No. Phil's ass wanted out. Jordan wanted to quit as well.

I wonder why that was :scratch:



Phil wanted Krause's job and Reinsdorf wasn't giving it to him.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Both of them were arrogant jackasses with wildly over inflated senses of their own importance.


Of all the back and forth in this thread, I would say this is the best thought.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:27 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Both of them were arrogant jackasses with wildly over inflated senses of their own importance.

History will remember little lasting about either of them imo. And remember that Tex Winter and John Bach were more integral to the Bulls' and that The Logo put together the Lakers


Winter and Bach, maybe both, followed Jackson to LA, but the narrative is PJ is the one chasing success instead of creating it. Hmm...

West put together the Lakers. They were extremely talented at one point with Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Kobe, Shaq, and a few others. Rings? Zero. Then they hire Phil and win three straight. Coincidence? Maybe they should have hired Doug Collins and almost won three rings in a row.


Phil was the media lights butterfly, Krause was the paranoid control freak. Each had an unnaturally gifted and driven star that I firmly believe that would have won titles with a solid coach not named Phil.

That having been said, Phil did (correctly) receive more credit, justifiably. But, Phil was largely superfluous in LA, imo

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I don't know who deserves more credit honestly. I do think Krause deserves more credit than he gets and Jackson deserves less than he gets though.


How so? To me they equally get credit in proportion to the role they played: Krause gets credit for acquiring players that proved to be of some use to a championship squad. Jackson gets credit for optimizing the talents and skills of the players Krause acquired so they could win games and championships. Moving away from Krause, making Kobe and Shaq work when they were both 20 somethings with massive egos and competing agendas is a modern day management miracle.


They don't get credited equally. Just look at the way you colored your statement. "...Players that proved to be of some use to a championship squad." Meaning every player except Jordan. Jordan could have been like a ton of other great players that never won a damn thing if Krause had not surrounded him with the right guys, including, not insignificantly, Phil "Backstabbin'" Jackson. Phil was driving the bus for the Albany Patroon and had a reputation as a flaky hippie loser when Krause pulled him off the scrap heap. And how did Phil thank Krause? By constantly petitioning Reinsdorf for Krause's job.

Phil is three things- an obnoxious pseudo-intellectual, a backstabbing phony, and a great coach of the best players in the game.

Jackson is clearly a pud but as you noted he is a great coach of the best players in the game. While that might seem like a slap, few coaches truly are. Pop, Riley, Auerbach. I'm not sure why this has to be Krause vs Jackson in the sense that one was great at his job and the other was lucky. Both were both in some respects.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Beardown wrote:
No. Phil's ass wanted out. Jordan wanted to quit as well.

I wonder why that was :scratch:



Phil wanted Krause's job and Reinsdorf wasn't giving it to him.


No. I don't think it was that. Phil just knew they were old and was waiting for the next big landing spot with young players. He got it.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Both of them were arrogant jackasses with wildly over inflated senses of their own importance.

History will remember little lasting about either of them imo. And remember that Tex Winter and John Bach were more integral to the Bulls' and that The Logo put together the Lakers


Winter and Bach, maybe both, followed Jackson to LA, but the narrative is PJ is the one chasing success instead of creating it. Hmm...

West put together the Lakers. They were extremely talented at one point with Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Kobe, Shaq, and a few others. Rings? Zero. Then they hire Phil and win three straight. Coincidence? Maybe they should have hired Doug Collins and almost won three rings in a row.


Phil was the media lights butterfly, Krause was the paranoid control freak. Each had an unnaturally gifted and driven star that I firmly believe that would have won titles with a solid coach not named Phil.

That having been said, Phil did (correctly) receive more credit, justifiably. But, Phil was largely superfluous in LA, imo
was Dell Harris not a "solid coach"?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I don't know who deserves more credit honestly. I do think Krause deserves more credit than he gets and Jackson deserves less than he gets though.


How so? To me they equally get credit in proportion to the role they played: Krause gets credit for acquiring players that proved to be of some use to a championship squad. Jackson gets credit for optimizing the talents and skills of the players Krause acquired so they could win games and championships. Moving away from Krause, making Kobe and Shaq work when they were both 20 somethings with massive egos and competing agendas is a modern day management miracle.


They don't get credited equally. Just look at the way you colored your statement. "...Players that proved to be of some use to a championship squad." Meaning every player except Jordan. Jordan could have been like a ton of other great players that never won a damn thing if Krause had not surrounded him with the right guys, including, not insignificantly, Phil "Backstabbin'" Jackson. Phil was driving the bus for the Albany Patroon and had a reputation as a flaky hippie loser when Krause pulled him off the scrap heap. And how did Phil thank Krause? By constantly petitioning Reinsdorf for Krause's job.

Phil is three things- an obnoxious pseudo-intellectual, a backstabbing phony, and a great coach of the best players in the game.

Jackson is clearly a pud but as you noted he is a great coach of the best players in the game. While that might seem like a slap, few coaches truly are. Pop, Riley, Auerbach. I'm not sure why this has to be Krause vs Jackson in the sense that one was great at his job and the other was lucky. Both were both in some respects.


I agree. No one managed top talent the way Phil did. He's still an asshole though.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:30 pm 
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If Krause looked like Theo Epstein this wouldn't even be a conversation.

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