Phil thought he deserved Krause's job.

Jordan was nearing the end. Bulls fans like to fantasize that they would have just kept winning forever. Maybe they had one more in them. Maybe. Jordan hated Krause since 1986 anyway.

Pippen mistakenly thought the Bulls fucked him.

Bach left after the first threepeat and Winter was about 90 years old.

I think what is killing your argument is that you aren't all that informed about that particular period in Bulls history. Phil Jackson played a role in the Bulls winning but of the 4 key people involved in winning he was 4th.

People didn't like Krause personally and it is simply easier to dismiss him. Jackson was a snake that backdoored Doug Collins in order to get his job

This is the second time you've appealed to some self-perceived authority about yourself regarding knowledge of the Bulls in the early 1990s. Anytime you want to bring legitimate arguments then bring it. As of now you've got a bunch of non-sequiturs and bizarre, TMZ-ish tangents about Doug Collins sleeping with Reinsdorf's wife going for you.

Let me break this down for you:

1) Jackson "backdooring" Collins in order to become the HC is irrelevant. Jackson could have tortured kittens as a side-job during his off time and it wouldn't matter because it's not relevant to his accomplishments as the Bulls' coach.

2) Your rankings of "key" people involved in the Bulls' first three peat is baseless. For the third time, the actual players refute your sentiment by citing PJ's knack for managing the team both on and off the court as instrumental in them finally taking the next step after years of being on the cusp of greatness in the '80s. I'll take the sentiments of people who actually worked with and under Jackson over what some self-important random poster has to say about the fucking head coach not being instrumental to a three-peat team because he went around his predecessor's back to get the gig in the first place. You need to learn the proper ingredients of a cogent argument. The first tip is that not everything that comes to mind can be tossed into an argument, especially if what you want to toss in looks like, and is in fact, a flaming piece of shit.

3) You said an 11-time world champion head coach is a fraud as a coach. That alone is some clinically insane shit.

Jackson never coached a team to a championship that wasn't predicted to win. He gets credit but if you think that he was the instrumental figure in the Bulls winning then you are delusional.

That is not true. THe Bulls were not predicted to win until after they got past the Pistons.

So if you're old you can't have legit beef with someone?

All these anti-Krause grievances are meticulously detailed in Sam Smith's the Jordan Rules and other subsequent, insider stories of the first three peat teams. They're also repeated in news stories, so it's not fantastical to say that people hated Krause for legitimate reasons. He's not some poor schmuck whose corpulent appearance tragically made him an easy target for scorn and derision. I personally don't care that the team separated after 1998 - I thought they were too old anyway and it was probably the right time to start new, so I'm personally not blaming Krause for that and I doubt the majority of fans hate Krause for that reason. If they hate him for any reason, I think it's more likely that they've bought into, or have been influenced by, the Jordan/PJ narrative about Krause rather than anything else. And like I've said, whether or you agree with them or not, the Krause dislike is not arbitrary.

Yes they were. The Pistons were done at that point. Bulls still had to beat them but at worst they were pick em. They swept Detroit. Wasn't even a series. Going into the Bulls were the favorite but they still had to shoe they could beat them.

This is the second time you've appealed to some self-perceived authority about yourself regarding knowledge of the Bulls in the early 1990s. Anytime you want to bring legitimate arguments then bring it. As of now you've got a bunch of non-sequiturs and bizarre, TMZ-ish tangents about Doug Collins sleeping with Reinsdorf's wife going for you.

Let me break this down for you:

1) Jackson "backdooring" Collins in order to become the HC is irrelevant. Jackson could have tortured kittens as a side-job during his off time and it wouldn't matter because it's not relevant to his accomplishments as the Bulls' coach.

2) Your rankings of "key" people involved in the Bulls' first three peat is baseless. For the third time, the actual players refute your sentiment by citing PJ's knack for managing the team both on and off the court as instrumental in them finally taking the next step after years of being on the cusp of greatness in the '80s. I'll take the sentiments of people who actually worked with and under Jackson over what some self-important random poster has to say about the fucking head coach not being instrumental to a three-peat team because he went around his predecessor's back to get the gig in the first place. You need to learn the proper ingredients of a cogent argument. The first tip is that not everything that comes to mind can be tossed into an argument, especially if what you want to toss in looks like, and is in fact, a flaming piece of shit.

3) You said an 11-time world champion head coach is a fraud as a coach. That alone is some clinically insane shit.

No that's revisionist history. Bulls were still questioned when Phil took over if they would get over the hump. If MJ would suffer the same fate and Ernie Banks blah blah blah

I think what is killing your argument is that you aren't all that informed about that particular period in Bulls history. Phil Jackson played a role in the Bulls winning but of the 4 key people involved in winning he was 4th.

People didn't like Krause personally and it is simply easier to dismiss him. Jackson was a snake that backdoored Doug Collins in order to get his job

seriously, where do you get your info? Do you think you were the only person alive in the mid-eighties? I at least know guys who worked the beat back then. Basing 3/4 of your info on Sam Smith is a poor way to pass yourself off as an expert. Collins was not seen by Krause as a finishing coach. Jackson had won with the Patroons.

I don't view Jackson as some sort of savant when it comes to basketball. He has taken ready made teams to championships.

I'm on your side of this argument in that I think Krause was clearly more important as the architect of those great Bulls teams, but you're being a little too dismissive of Phil who handled big egos better than any NBA coach ever has. Hell, he even got Jordan to read a book or two.

Also, we've all heard the rumors regarding Collins' firing. I don't know what's true, but I think that fact that Reinsdorf was willing to consider bringing him back later shows that his dismissal was not likely related to basketball.

I'm on your side of this argument in that I think Krause was clearly more important as the architect of those great Bulls teams, but you're being a little too dismissive of Phil who handled big egos better than any NBA coach ever has. Hell, he even got Jordan to read a book or two.

Also, we've all heard the rumors regarding Collins' firing. I don't know what's true, but I think that fact that Reinsdorf was willing to consider bringing him back later shows that his dismissal was not likely related to basketball.

It was a shock when Collins was fired. An absolute shock. It is being spun now as if it was common knowledge that the Bulls couldn't win with him as coach and thus they needed to make a change.

Regarding the Collins rumors you guys are being worse than a Score know nothing. "I know this but I won't say". If you have the story, spill it.

Supposedly he was bagging somebody's daughter. I don't know who's or if it's even true.

Oh I thought it would be more fun like Horace Grant is Chris' real dad.

There were all kinds of rumors at the time if you remember. Because firing a coach like Collins in that situation after he had just won two playoff series as an underdog and the team was obviously on a big upswing was such a head-scratcher. And then to give the job to a guy who had zero respect in the league at the time. The only guy who would take a chance on Phil then was Krause. And I don't even think he was the lead assistant. It was just weird. People weren't happy about Phil. Of course, after six championships it's really easy to forget that.

Your comment doesn't even relate to the quote cited so why cite it?


I never professed to have any inside knowledge and I don't even think that I was reading Sam Smith back then. Probably Bernie Lincicome but thanks anyway.

I also never professed to be an expert. What I am is a dude that is comfortable with what he knew about the team during that period in history. This whole "Collins wasn't a finished coach" is revisionist spin.

If you know the Bulls of 89 (as you are claiming) then you know that they weren't a finished team. There is a very clear reason for that.

I just demonstrated in the comment above yours about what I know. Before I cited facts I simply used recall. It is obvious that some of you that seek to bash me really didn't watch the team much during those years because you never have any specifics about anything. Trying to zone in on me is frankly old and tired at this point.

my comment was related to your comment that Jackson was a "snake who backdoored Collins". Not a bit of that statement is veritably true, you have no personal direct info to support it, and you stating it makes it seem as though you have some inside info. I didn't even look at who posted the comment before I replied to it, which is very often true of me. Thinking I'm "zoning in" on you is just more irrefutable proof of a complex on your part. According to guys I know who were stringing for the Bulls at that time frame, Krause disliked Collins' style and thought he was too hyper to get the team to the next stage, plus as someone has already pointed out correctly, Collins disliked some of Krause's picks. Dalliances with women was not one of the things mentioned to me.

The error people keep making is suggesting that PJ screwing Collins out of his job somehow invalidates popular opinion of Jackson as one of the best coaches ever, and quite possibly the best NBA coach ever. That has nothing to do with PJ's accomplishments, and the question of whether or not Collins could have met or exceeded Phil's success in Chicago is simply irrelevant. Phil is the GOAT.

I'm on your side of this argument in that I think Krause was clearly more important as the architect of those great Bulls teams, but you're being a little too dismissive of Phil who handled big egos better than any NBA coach ever has. Hell, he even got Jordan to read a book or two.

Also, we've all heard the rumors regarding Collins' firing. I don't know what's true, but I think that fact that Reinsdorf was willing to consider bringing him back later shows that his dismissal was not likely related to basketball.

The more I think about this subject, the more certain I am that Tex Winter (triangle architect) and Johnny Bach (Doberman defense). Burning sage and book of the month gimmicks seem less important than we were led to believe back then.

Plus iirc, Jordan was publicly seemingly the closest to Bach, who left/was pushed out after the first threepeat. And his game seemed most shaped by Bach's aggressive style