I didn’t. Veganfan did. But I see what you’re saying now. Jordan played hella D up until the first retirement. After that, he was a very good defensive player who had lost a lot of the athleticism necessary to be elite. Defense is a young man’s game.

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You’re familiar with Sam Smith’s famous book, right?

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If you're talking Jordan rules yeah. only remember the excerpts. Never read it.

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Jordan's defense was definitely in decline during that 2nd 3 peat. He wasn't locking guys up at that point but he also wasn't a liability. LeBron James is just as much of a liability on defense as any of the other Cavs at this point. Only person with the stones to call him on it is Van Gundy.


As a defender he was always overrated to me. Constantly ducking covers even during his so called prime and I never recall him locking guys up either.

Even when he was supposed to be elite defensively they'd find the readily available "He has so much in the way of offensive responsibilities" or he'd easily be the league's best defender.

It was always garbage.

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Yes. Please tell me you're not equating that to telling a reporter, in front of cameras, that you need better teammates after a regular season loss.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yes. My bro got it for Christmas when we were young (weird, I know).

It was basically a summary of how Jordan alienated teammates and caused turmoil within the team. He even told teammates not to pass to Cartwright late in the game and then took every opportunity he could to throw Cartwright shitty passes only (that he couldn’t catch) so that the Bulls would consider trading him.

Later, Jordan and his businessmen got to the media and had them all disavow the book and its contents to discredit it.

The original Harvey Weinstein!

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How about "I did my part". Isn't that one of James's patented under the bus lines also?

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Read my last post. What Jordan did was 20 times scummier. Look, he’s my hero too, but you can’t be naive enough to think that the guy wasn’t an asshole or a self-server. It’s part of what made him - and other athletes - great at what they do.

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Probably. He has too many to keep track of.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I know of the stuff regarding Cartwright from that book. Cartwright also threatened to break Jordan's legs too. Also from the book.

Jordan was hard as help on guys like Perdue and Stacey King too. He never missed a chance to take a swipe at them but it was behind the scenes. He never aired guys out in public. LeBron shows teammates up during games all the time. He also blows off coaches too. Treated Blatt like shit. Did the same thing with Spoelstra too.

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I feel like this is evolving into a Trump-Clinton esque examination of the media and how people were portrayed by them.

I’ll agree that Jordan was a better leader. But he did scummy shit too. He just happened to be a media darling the likes of which sports had never seen. He said self-serving shit all the time. His interviews were cringe-worthy if everyone hadn’t been slobbering all over him.

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Come on on, LTG. If Jordan had been coached by Blatt or Spoelstra, he wouldn’t have given them permission to do interviews. He probably would have punched one of them in practice in addition to his teammates.

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He was a media darling in large part because he was naturally media savvy in a way LeBron isn't. Jordan was a prick, but when he was playing even he knew better than to say after a loss to reporters he needs better teammates. LeBron's need to never be seen as at fault for anything causes him to say truly dumb shit like that.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I don’t necessarily disagree with that, but that’s just a product of Jordan’s savviness. If selling out his teammates would have sold one more pair of shoes, he’d have called Scott Burrell a homo and waved the $150 in front of his face.

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Jordan was definitely over loved by the media. If you're talking hoops though I can provide two playoffs series in which James folded. Boston and Dallas. James laid down in both. Never would have occurred with Jordan.

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If...

I'm talking bout what is.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I cannot believe someone said that Jordan quit playing defense after 1990. If you want to argue that his defense was in decline in the second 3-peat then that is acceptable, but there is no way in hell he stopped playing defense after 1990. That is crazy talk.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Think about it this way Vegan. You think that LeBron James is the sole reason that any of his teams have won championships. Shouldn't the removal of Irving be an illustration of this particular viewpoint? It doesn't matter who LeBron's teammates happen to be. As long as He is in the mix you can punch his ticket to the finals. This season will be no different. I'm certain of that.

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I'm really not going to hold the loss last year against him as a negative outside of the fact that he was outplayed in the series by a guy on the other team. It's his whole career though. He got the best possible circumstances to win and yet he failed 2/4 in Miami, and 1/2 in Cleveland if we completely ignore the Durant Warriors. Being able to choose your situation matters in regards to the ideas that he was at a talent disadvantage in those series. For some he may have been and for others he wasn't.

Now, maybe Jordan got lucky, but what you have to realize is that his teams weren't talent rich until we look back in hindsight. Rodman was a washed up player who was traded for a backup center. Horace Grant had a moderate career outside of Chicago. Pippen was great, and a really good complement to Jordan, but it's not like Lebron hasn't played with top NBA players for his whole championship window.

The fact is that the only real excuses we have to make for Jordan is that he wasn't quite back in his partial return season after he had spent time playing baseball for almost 2 years. I do think Lebron had a legitimate chance to surpass Jordan. However, the resume just doesn't back it up without resorting to (BUT REBOUNDS!). He also has yet to have the numbers decline that lowers his career averages some like it did with Kobe. That's yet another thing that overrates current players over retired players as we look at Jordan's Wizards numbers when Lebron has yet to play his final two seasons as part owner of the Milwaukee Bucks.

It's about time to close the book on Lebron as the GOAT talk. He's clearly among the greats of all time but just like them there just isn't the case for it. Our best chance now for someone to surpass Jordan is Lonzo Ball.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Kobe's first 2-3 years brought his averages down more than his last few years did. LBJ was averaging 20+ in the league the night after HS graduation.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

There it is. The old "Jordan did all by himself" argument. In the next thread Rick will be arguing with Vegan that Scottie was one of the 50 best of all-time. Fuckin' Bulls fans. Unbelievable.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

Except, I gave a ton of credit to Scottie there. The Horace and Rodman stuff is factual.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It's not. Horace was a solid all-around player when he was with the Bulls and Rodman was a specialist at the top of his game. The reason they got him for Will Perdue had nothing to do with him being "washed up".

Jordan played on manufactured teams. In fact, that's his advantage. The guy who manufactured his teams was smarter than Jordan or LeBron. How the teams were put together shouldn't even be discussed when evaluating the players.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

Horace was a pretty good starting PF in the NBA during his time with the Bulls. Nothing more and nothing less.

Why was Rodman traded for a backup center? Whatever the reason, he was at a low enough value to only get a backup center in return.

What is a manufactured team? I mean, the Bulls weren't put together by random chance but I don't really understand what you are saying here. Every team in history is manufactured.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Grant is debatable. He was a good player for sure. Moderate may be underselling him a little.


In no way was Rodman washed up when he was traded. The Spurs didn't like his act but he was his usual dominant rebounding self.

"Washed up" may be a poor word choice but there aren't many NBA hall of famers in the peak of their career that get traded for a package like a backup center.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Similar to Kenny's brilliant trade for A.J. Pierzynski in 2005.

A.J. was still great, it just wasnt working in SF. Kenny and Crumbs took advantage of the markets.

There aren't many NBA Hall of Famers who aggravate the living shit out of David Robinson and Sean Elliot.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

If MJ can handle Rodman why couldn't they?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm pretty sure Phil "handled" Rodman in as much as he could be handled. They also used a roster spot on a guy who couldn't play just to babysit him.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.