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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Rodman wasn’t in any way “washed up”. He was older, but he played as well as his prime.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:19 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Rodman wasn’t in any way “washed up”. He was older, but he played as well as his prime.
If you prefer he was a "low value" player prior to coming to Chicago, which is why the Spurs traded him for a backup center.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Rodman wasn’t in any way “washed up”. He was older, but he played as well as his prime.
If you prefer he was a "low value" player prior to coming to Chicago, which is why the Spurs traded him for a backup center.


Revisionist. As JORR suggested, Rodman was traded because he was a headcase/locker room cancer. The Spurs were at a disadvantage when trying to sell him and the Bulls capitalized.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jordan played on manufactured teams.
Jordan didn't jump ship to play on a team manufactured to his specifications. LeBron has. Twice.

In his six Championship seasons, Jordan missed a grand total of six games. This includes playing in all 82 games every season during the final 3peat, and averaging 38.25 minutes per game. LeBron missed eight games just last season.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Rodman wasn’t in any way “washed up”. He was older, but he played as well as his prime.
If you prefer he was a "low value" player prior to coming to Chicago, which is why the Spurs traded him for a backup center.


I don’t care what he was traded for. He was still first team all-defense and led the league in rebounds. That’s not a washed up player.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:59 pm 
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Sweet, another reason why Jordan is the GOAT, he could handle Rodman on his team when others couldn't or wouldn't.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:07 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Rodman wasn’t in any way “washed up”. He was older, but he played as well as his prime.
If you prefer he was a "low value" player prior to coming to Chicago, which is why the Spurs traded him for a backup center.


Revisionist. As JORR suggested, Rodman was traded because he was a headcase/locker room cancer. The Spurs were at a disadvantage when trying to sell him and the Bulls capitalized.
It's literally not revisionist. He was traded for a backup center! That is simply a fact. For some reason, the demand for a player of his quality was a guy who didn't start on the Bulls or the team he was traded to. :lol:

This does bring up an interesting discussion about Ray Allen turning down double the money from Boston to go to Miami and be a prime contributor to Lebron's title count.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Rodman wasn’t in any way “washed up”. He was older, but he played as well as his prime.
If you prefer he was a "low value" player prior to coming to Chicago, which is why the Spurs traded him for a backup center.

This is 100% wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:21 pm 
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:lol:

So his value wasn't what he was traded for.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:29 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
:lol:

So his value wasn't what he was traded for.

His value was at that level because of locker room/off the court issues. There was zero chance he was returning to the Spurs because the team was done with him. The entire league knew this, so there was no reason for any team to come forward and put together a package with meaningful players or draft picks. Most teams probably hesitated to even consider making an offer for him because of how destructive he was in San Antonio. The Bulls had strong leadership, so they knew they could make the gamble of acquiring someone with his talent, even knowing about the possible issues that would probably come about.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
:lol:

So his value wasn't what he was traded for.

His value was at that level because of locker room/off the court issues. There was zero chance he was returning to the Spurs because the team was done with him. The entire league knew this, so there was no reason for any team to come forward and put together a package with meaningful players or draft picks. Most teams probably hesitated to even consider making an offer for him because of how destructive he was in San Antonio. The Bulls had strong leadership, so they knew they could make the gamble of acquiring someone with his talent, even knowing about the possible issues that would probably come about.
You pretty much described a "low value" player there. As you said, most teams probably didn't even want to make an offer.

I understand it worked out great for Chicago but it was questionable at best at the time if Rodman would provide anything more than a distraction and some rebounds.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
:lol:

So his value wasn't what he was traded for.

His value was at that level because of locker room/off the court issues. There was zero chance he was returning to the Spurs because the team was done with him. The entire league knew this, so there was no reason for any team to come forward and put together a package with meaningful players or draft picks. Most teams probably hesitated to even consider making an offer for him because of how destructive he was in San Antonio. The Bulls had strong leadership, so they knew they could make the gamble of acquiring someone with his talent, even knowing about the possible issues that would probably come about.
You pretty much described a "low value" player there. As you said, most teams probably didn't even want to make an offer.

I understand it worked out great for Chicago but it was questionable at best at the time if Rodman would provide anything more than a distraction and some rebounds.



What are we talking about here? Your original post on the subject was the suggestion that Jordan was carrying bums and washed up guys.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
:lol:

So his value wasn't what he was traded for.

His value was at that level because of locker room/off the court issues. There was zero chance he was returning to the Spurs because the team was done with him. The entire league knew this, so there was no reason for any team to come forward and put together a package with meaningful players or draft picks. Most teams probably hesitated to even consider making an offer for him because of how destructive he was in San Antonio. The Bulls had strong leadership, so they knew they could make the gamble of acquiring someone with his talent, even knowing about the possible issues that would probably come about.
You pretty much described a "low value" player there. As you said, most teams probably didn't even want to make an offer.

I understand it worked out great for Chicago but it was questionable at best at the time if Rodman would provide anything more than a distraction and some rebounds.

Don't try to Juice your way through this discussion with your "value" semantics. You called him washed up. Numerous people have called you wrong about that statement. He put up great numbers in San Antonio and was still one of the best rebounders and defenders in the game. San Antonio just didn't know how to handle the guy, and most of the league was too scared to touch him either.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
What are we talking about here? Your original post on the subject was the suggestion that Jordan was carrying bums and washed up guys.
No, I didn't.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Don't try to Juice your way through this discussion with your "value" semantics. You called him washed up. Numerous people have called you wrong about that statement. He put up great numbers in San Antonio and was still one of the best rebounders and defenders in the game. San Antonio just didn't know how to handle the guy, and most of the league was too scared to touch him either.
I already said that "washed up" was a poor choice and "low value" would be better which is the reply you chose to respond to so I'm not sure why you are now considering it semantics.

A guy that most of the league won't even put a trade offer for and is traded for a backup center is a low value player. I don't care how bad of an attitude you have if you are a hall of fame player still in their prime and you aren't willing to offer more than a backup center to get that player.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
What are we talking about here? Your original post on the subject was the suggestion that Jordan was carrying bums and washed up guys.
No, I didn't.


:lol: Yes, you did, Rick. Yes, you did:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
what you have to realize is that his teams weren't talent rich until we look back in hindsight. Rodman was a washed up player who was traded for a backup center. Horace Grant had a moderate career outside of Chicago.


You were trying to make the tired old Chicagocentric argument that Jordan is "the greatest that ever was, the greatest that ever will be." And I totally get why guys your age do that with Jordan. It's fine. But don't pretend it's unbiased analysis.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
What are we talking about here? Your original post on the subject was the suggestion that Jordan was carrying bums and washed up guys.
No, I didn't.


Yes, it was. And now you're talking about the value of the trade? Your premise was that Rodman was washed up and Jordan carried the Bulls to titles.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:59 pm 
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"Weren't talent rich" does not mean they were bums. The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct. I've already said that "low value" was better for Rodman but I probably need to say it 10 more times before people realize it. I also believe that I had said that Pippen was great.

So no, I didn't say he was carrying bums and washed up guys.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:00 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
What are we talking about here? Your original post on the subject was the suggestion that Jordan was carrying bums and washed up guys.
No, I didn't.


Yes, it was. And now you're talking about the value of the trade? Your premise was that Rodman was washed up and Jordan carried the Bulls to titles.
I'm not going to respond to any more posts in this thread that contain the words "washed up" unless they say "I understand you misspoke and have admitted so and I will instead concentrate on things besides your poor word choice".

It is pretty interesting that I literally admit I was wrong and everyone won't accept it. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.
Can you do me a favor and repost what I said about Horace Grant?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.
Can you do me a favor and repost what I said about Horace Grant?


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Horace Grant was washed up


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.
Can you do me a favor and repost what I said about Horace Grant?


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Horace Grant was washed up
:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.
Can you do me a favor and repost what I said about Horace Grant?


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Horace Grant was washed up!

Fixed


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.
Can you do me a favor and repost what I said about Horace Grant?



I've already quoted it several times: "Horace Grant had a moderate career outside Chicago..." Again, not true. He averaged about 8 win shares per season over his first four years in Orlando. That's quite a bit better than moderate. By then he was 32 years old.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I don't care how bad of an attitude you have if you are a hall of fame player still in their prime and you aren't willing to offer more than a backup center to get that player.


This happens all the time in sports. Gets get sold at a discount because they have lots of baggage that creates risk.

Here are great players that were acquired at below market value:

Rodman
Moss
Sprewell
Francis

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:25 pm 
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:lol:

Who is jorr trying to crap here? He does the same thing he's accusing Rick of except in reverse. He thinks jordan is overrated, Scottie wasn't great, and Rodman was worse than career role player Buck Williams. Thursday's at 5, friend!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.



Simply validates that an over reliance on analytics stinks!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.

That is an...interesting take.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:32 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Who is jorr trying to crap here? He does the same thing he's accusing Rick of except in reverse. He thinks jordan is overrated, Scottie wasn't great, and Rodman was worse than career role player Buck Williams. Thursday's at 5, friend!



I don't think Jordan is overrated anywhere but Chicago. He's an unquestionably great player and I would argue that he's better than LeBron. I just don't think it's an article of faith that he is unquestionably the best ever. Anyway, my personal opinions aren't the point here.

The entire point of Rick's argument was that Jordan dragged bums around while guys like LeBron and Durant "manufactured" all-star teams to play on. Either Rodman and Pippen are great or they aren't. It doesn't switch back and forth depending on what the argument is.

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