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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:33 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.

That is an...interesting take.



Grant is a seriously underrated component on those first threepeat teams. He was a better all-around player than Rodman and that first run was better than the Rodman teams.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.
Can you do me a favor and repost what I said about Horace Grant?



I've already quoted it several times: "Horace Grant had a moderate career outside Chicago..." Again, not true. He averaged about 8 win shares per season over his first four years in Orlando. That's quite a bit better than moderate. By then he was 32 years old.
I'll be honest, I don't know enough about win shares in the NBA to talk about that.

I watched a ton of NBA basketball in the 90s, though I was young, and my impression was that Horace Grant after the Bulls was basically an above average starting power forward. In Orlando, he was 11.7 ppg and 8.5 ppg. I can name a lot of 90s PF that have pretty similar numbers including guys like Vin Baker and Derrick Coleman.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Who is jorr trying to crap here? He does the same thing he's accusing Rick of except in reverse. He thinks jordan is overrated, Scottie wasn't great, and Rodman was worse than career role player Buck Williams. Thursday's at 5, friend!



I don't think Jordan is overrated anywhere but Chicago. He's an unquestionably great player and I would argue that he's better than LeBron. I just don't think it's an article of faith that he is unquestionably the best ever. Anyway, my personal opinions aren't the point here.

The entire point of Rick's argument was that Jordan dragged bums around while guys like LeBron and Durant "manufactured" all-star teams to play on. Either Rodman and Pippen are great or they aren't. It doesn't switch back and forth depending on what the argument is.


Your first sentence is pretty much my entire point in the thread. As of today, I think Jordan is the greatest ever, but people in Chicago get hysterical if someone even dare mentions someone else, as though the whole thing's not completely subjective to begin with.

I have to part ways with you on your Grant > Wade thought, though. You should walk that one back.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Is Pippen better than anyone LeBron has ever played with?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.

That is an...interesting take.



Grant is a seriously underrated component on those first threepeat teams. He was a better all-around player than Rodman and that first run was better than the Rodman teams.


Grant was underrated and was a very good player on both ends. He helped trap when MJ and Scottie pressed. He could hit the J, and he was a great offensive rebounder. But he wasn't Dwyane Wade.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:37 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Who is jorr trying to crap here? He does the same thing he's accusing Rick of except in reverse. He thinks jordan is overrated, Scottie wasn't great, and Rodman was worse than career role player Buck Williams. Thursday's at 5, friend!



I don't think Jordan is overrated anywhere but Chicago. He's an unquestionably great player and I would argue that he's better than LeBron. I just don't think it's an article of faith that he is unquestionably the best ever. Anyway, my personal opinions aren't the point here.

The entire point of Rick's argument was that Jordan dragged bums around while guys like LeBron and Durant "manufactured" all-star teams to play on. Either Rodman and Pippen are great or they aren't. It doesn't switch back and forth depending on what the argument is.


Your first sentence is pretty much my entire point in the thread. As of today, I think Jordan is the greatest ever, but people in Chicago get hysterical if someone even dare mentions someone else, as though the whole thing's not completely subjective to begin with.

I have to part ways with you on your Grant > Wade thought, though. You should walk that one back.
Your thread title was "Lebron = GOAT". :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:37 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:


I have to part ways with you on your Grant > Wade thought, though. You should walk that one back.


I'm certainly not saying Grant had a better career than Wade. But Wade was slightly past his prime when LeBron won in Miami. Grant was at his peak during the Bulls threepeat. And it was a very good peak. He's the forgotten guy on those great Bulls teams.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.

That is an...interesting take.



Grant is a seriously underrated component on those first threepeat teams. He was a better all-around player than Rodman and that first run was better than the Rodman teams.



Rodman was better than Grant and the 2nd three peat teams were better. Won more games and were more dominant. They were also deeper. Williams (1 year) and Kukoc alone made them better and I'd take Rodman over Grant anyday.

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Last edited by long time guy on Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Who is jorr trying to crap here? He does the same thing he's accusing Rick of except in reverse. He thinks jordan is overrated, Scottie wasn't great, and Rodman was worse than career role player Buck Williams. Thursday's at 5, friend!



I don't think Jordan is overrated anywhere but Chicago. He's an unquestionably great player and I would argue that he's better than LeBron. I just don't think it's an article of faith that he is unquestionably the best ever. Anyway, my personal opinions aren't the point here.

The entire point of Rick's argument was that Jordan dragged bums around while guys like LeBron and Durant "manufactured" all-star teams to play on. Either Rodman and Pippen are great or they aren't. It doesn't switch back and forth depending on what the argument is.


Your first sentence is pretty much my entire point in the thread. As of today, I think Jordan is the greatest ever, but people in Chicago get hysterical if someone even dare mentions someone else, as though the whole thing's not completely subjective to begin with.

I have to part ways with you on your Grant > Wade thought, though. You should walk that one back.
Your thread title was "Lebron = GOAT". :lol:


Had to get people's attention. But I even say in the original post that Lebron could be better when all is said and done... not right now.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:38 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.

That is an...interesting take.



Grant is a seriously underrated component on those first threepeat teams. He was a better all-around player than Rodman and that first run was better than the Rodman teams.



Rodman was better than Grant and the 2nd three peat teams were better. Won more games and were more dominant. They were also deeper. Williams (1 year) and Kukoc alone made them better and I'd take Rodman over Grant anyday.


Almost everything you said there is wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Who is jorr trying to crap here? He does the same thing he's accusing Rick of except in reverse. He thinks jordan is overrated, Scottie wasn't great, and Rodman was worse than career role player Buck Williams. Thursday's at 5, friend!



I don't think Jordan is overrated anywhere but Chicago. He's an unquestionably great player and I would argue that he's better than LeBron. I just don't think it's an article of faith that he is unquestionably the best ever. Anyway, my personal opinions aren't the point here.

The entire point of Rick's argument was that Jordan dragged bums around while guys like LeBron and Durant "manufactured" all-star teams to play on. Either Rodman and Pippen are great or they aren't. It doesn't switch back and forth depending on what the argument is.

Rick's argument is that Jordan's teams weren't more talented than LeBron's. Whether you agree or not, that's a reasonable opinion to hold.

And yeah, if you're gonna dig in on a guy for expressing a personal opinion you disagree with, it's fair to bring up your opinions as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:42 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Horace Grant stuff was 100% correct.


No it isn't. Grant averaged over 11 win shares per season during that first Bulls championship run. He was a near great player. He was better than Wade was when LeBron won in Miami.

That is an...interesting take.



Grant is a seriously underrated component on those first threepeat teams. He was a better all-around player than Rodman and that first run was better than the Rodman teams.



Rodman was better than Grant and the 2nd three peat teams were better. Won more games and were more dominant. They were also deeper. Williams (1 year) and Kukoc alone made them better and I'd take Rodman over Grant anyday.


Almost everything you said there is wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:43 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Who is jorr trying to crap here? He does the same thing he's accusing Rick of except in reverse. He thinks jordan is overrated, Scottie wasn't great, and Rodman was worse than career role player Buck Williams. Thursday's at 5, friend!



I don't think Jordan is overrated anywhere but Chicago. He's an unquestionably great player and I would argue that he's better than LeBron. I just don't think it's an article of faith that he is unquestionably the best ever. Anyway, my personal opinions aren't the point here.

The entire point of Rick's argument was that Jordan dragged bums around while guys like LeBron and Durant "manufactured" all-star teams to play on. Either Rodman and Pippen are great or they aren't. It doesn't switch back and forth depending on what the argument is.

Rick's argument is that Jordan's teams weren't more talented than LeBron's. Whether you agree or not, that's a reasonable opinion to hold.

And yeah, if you're gonna dig in on a guy for expressing a personal opinion you disagree with, it's fair to bring up your opinions as well.
Thank you.

There is a reason JORR has to keep saying that "Jordan dragged bums around".

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:46 pm 
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I think the second 3-peat was better. Jordan was past his prime, but he was still the MVP. Also, Pippen was right in the middle of his prime, Rodman was still dominating with the things he did well, Longley wasn't bad, and Ron Harper was 2nd team defense. They also had a slew of role players who were perfect at what they did. Kerr, Kukoc, Wennington, Buechler,etc.

First three-peat might have been a little more explosive with a younger Jordan, but second 3-peat was a machine. Suffocating team defense and offensive efficiency in the triangle

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:46 pm 
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I have to disagree with you on the outside of Chicago thing jorr. You think Jordan is the 6th best player ever and worse than shaq. The general concensus nationally is that Jordan is still the best and LeBron is the only one with a case to be made over him. So you necessarily have to think he's overrated in AND out of Chicago.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:54 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Rick's argument is that Jordan's teams weren't more talented than LeBron's.


Right. And I'll remember it the next time there's an argument on the greatness of Rodman and Pippen who are now deemed to be less than Love and Irving.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:54 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I have to disagree with you on the outside of Chicago thing jorr. You think Jordan is the 6th best player ever and worse than shaq. The general concensus nationally is that Jordan is still the best and LeBron is the only one with a case to be made over him. So you necessarily have to think he's overrated in AND out of Chicago.
That's the funny thing. Lebron did make a run at him. He was poised to make a strong case to do it. The problem is that Miami and the Cleveland years have too many blemishes on them to make a real claim.

It then goes to the "BUT REBOUNDS!" argument but that one is just dumb.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:56 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I have to disagree with you on the outside of Chicago thing jorr. You think Jordan is the 6th best player ever and worse than shaq. The general concensus nationally is that Jordan is still the best and LeBron is the only one with a case to be made over him. So you necessarily have to think he's overrated in AND out of Chicago.
That's the funny thing. Lebron did make a run at him. He was poised to make a strong case to do it. The problem is that Miami and the Cleveland years have too many blemishes on them to make a real claim.

It then goes to the "BUT REBOUNDS!" argument but that one is just dumb.


Did you slip and fall as a child?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:56 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Rick's argument is that Jordan's teams weren't more talented than LeBron's.


Right. And I'll remember it the next time there's an argument on the greatness of Rodman and Pippen who are now deemed to be less than Love and Irving.

But your opinions on them are as inconsistent as anyone's here. That was my point of bringing it up earlier. You think Buck williams was better than rodman because, in your words, offense matters more than defense and rebounding. Yet you're offended someone would then suggest Love is better? Doesn't add up.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:56 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
The general concensus nationally is that Jordan is still the best and LeBron is the only one with a case to be made over him.


That's a consensus only among those under 35. I know many guys who think Magic and Oscar Robertson were both better than Jordan.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:57 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Rick's argument is that Jordan's teams weren't more talented than LeBron's.


Right. And I'll remember it the next time there's an argument on the greatness of Rodman and Pippen who are now deemed to be less than Love and Irving.

But your opinions on them are as inconsistent as anyone's here. That was my point of bringing it up earlier. You think Buck williams was better than rodman because, in your words, offense matters more than defense and rebounding. Yet you're offended someone would then suggest Love is better? Doesn't add up.



I wouldn't compare Love to Rodman. They're completely different types of players.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
The general concensus nationally is that Jordan is still the best and LeBron is the only one with a case to be made over him.


That's a consensus only among those under 35. I know many guys who think Magic and Oscar Robertson were both better than Jordan.

I'm sure you do. You rarely see anyone make such a case on a national platform regardless of age. You see old and young men alike say it's Jordan or LeBron.

Are you really gonna pretend you don't know it's a two horse race in the eyes of most national NBA observers regardless of age? I can drown this thread with links you won't be able to counter, but let's just agree on this very obvious point. I don't even think LeBron is close to the second best ever, but I'm also not gonna pretend that's not a pretty near consensus nationally.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Rick's argument is that Jordan's teams weren't more talented than LeBron's.


Right. And I'll remember it the next time there's an argument on the greatness of Rodman and Pippen who are now deemed to be less than Love and Irving.

But your opinions on them are as inconsistent as anyone's here. That was my point of bringing it up earlier. You think Buck williams was better than rodman because, in your words, offense matters more than defense and rebounding. Yet you're offended someone would then suggest Love is better? Doesn't add up.



I wouldn't compare Love to Rodman. They're completely different types of players.

They are, because of the evolution of the game. But they play the same position on championship teams. You can't sit this comparison out just because it destroys your Buck > Rodman logic.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:05 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Rick's argument is that Jordan's teams weren't more talented than LeBron's.


Right. And I'll remember it the next time there's an argument on the greatness of Rodman and Pippen who are now deemed to be less than Love and Irving.

But your opinions on them are as inconsistent as anyone's here. That was my point of bringing it up earlier. You think Buck williams was better than rodman because, in your words, offense matters more than defense and rebounding. Yet you're offended someone would then suggest Love is better? Doesn't add up.



I wouldn't compare Love to Rodman. They're completely different types of players.

They are, because of the evolution of the game. But they play the same position on championship teams. You can't sit this comparison out just because it destroys your Buck > Rodman logic.


It doesn't destroy my logic at all. I'm not comparing either Williams or Rodman to Love. Do you think LeBron has played with anyone better than Pippen or not?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:06 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
The general concensus nationally is that Jordan is still the best and LeBron is the only one with a case to be made over him.


That's a consensus only among those under 35. I know many guys who think Magic and Oscar Robertson were both better than Jordan.

I'm sure you do. You rarely see anyone make such a case on a national platform regardless of age. You see old and young men alike say it's Jordan or LeBron.

Are you really gonna pretend you don't know it's a two horse race in the eyes of most national NBA observers regardless of age? I can drown this thread with links you won't be able to counter, but let's just agree on this very obvious point. I don't even think LeBron is close to the second best ever, but I'm also not gonna pretend that's not a pretty near consensus nationally.


It's not though. The guys who are commenting on the NBA generally act as if the league started with Bird and Magic.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Rick's argument is that Jordan's teams weren't more talented than LeBron's.


Right. And I'll remember it the next time there's an argument on the greatness of Rodman and Pippen who are now deemed to be less than Love and Irving.

But your opinions on them are as inconsistent as anyone's here. That was my point of bringing it up earlier. You think Buck williams was better than rodman because, in your words, offense matters more than defense and rebounding. Yet you're offended someone would then suggest Love is better? Doesn't add up.



I wouldn't compare Love to Rodman. They're completely different types of players.

They are, because of the evolution of the game. But they play the same position on championship teams. You can't sit this comparison out just because it destroys your Buck > Rodman logic.


It doesn't destroy my logic at all. I'm not comparing either Williams or Rodman to Love. Do you think LeBron has played with anyone better than Pippen or not?

I think Wade is very close. I'd probably give the edge to Pippen though. I'd take Wade/Bosh over any two teammates Jordan ever had.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
The general concensus nationally is that Jordan is still the best and LeBron is the only one with a case to be made over him.


That's a consensus only among those under 35. I know many guys who think Magic and Oscar Robertson were both better than Jordan.

I'm sure you do. You rarely see anyone make such a case on a national platform regardless of age. You see old and young men alike say it's Jordan or LeBron.

Are you really gonna pretend you don't know it's a two horse race in the eyes of most national NBA observers regardless of age? I can drown this thread with links you won't be able to counter, but let's just agree on this very obvious point. I don't even think LeBron is close to the second best ever, but I'm also not gonna pretend that's not a pretty near consensus nationally.


It's not though. The guys who are commenting on the NBA generally act as if the league started with Bird and Magic.

No they don't. Are you following Skip Bayless for your coverage?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:09 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
I think the second 3-peat was better. Jordan was past his prime, but he was still the MVP. Also, Pippen was right in the middle of his prime, Rodman was still dominating with the things he did well, Longley wasn't bad, and Ron Harper was 2nd team defense. They also had a slew of role players who were perfect at what they did. Kerr, Kukoc, Wennington, Buechler,etc.

First three-peat might have been a little more explosive with a younger Jordan, but second 3-peat was a machine. Suffocating team defense and offensive efficiency in the triangle


I'd say Pippen was at his absolute best from 1992 - 1995. 1996 was cool but then the back stuff started to pop up.

Rodman was a beast but I might take Horace over him just because of what he brought offensively. He didn't bring much on offense but Rodman brought 0.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Alright jorr, you don't want to accept reality here so let's do it. Find any links you can saying Oscar and Magic are the best ever. I'll do the same for Jordan and LeBron. I suppose after I win this handily your next argument will be old people don't know how to use the internet or something. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:13 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Alright jorr, you don't want to accept reality here so let's do it. Find any links you can saying Oscar and Magic are the best ever. I'll do the same for Jordan and LeBron. I suppose after I win this handily your next argument will be old people don't know how to use the internet or something. :lol:



:lol: Are you really going to use argumentum ad populum? I doubt you can find a link to anyone who even saw Robertson play.

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