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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:58 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
You're missing the correlation - the team fails to perform even when Wade performs. The team only performed when Shaq was Shaq. When Shaq left and Wade as at his absolute peak they achieved nothing.



Correct. Wade has rings the way Horry has rings. He was on the team.

Didn't Wade get the Finals MVP?

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shhh, he's on a roll.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:00 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
You're missing the correlation - the team fails to perform even when Wade performs. The team only performed when Shaq was Shaq. When Shaq left and Wade as at his absolute peak they achieved nothing.

Oh, so a team got worse when one of the 15 best players of all time declined and then left? Brilliant work detective. It's not making the argument you think it's making though.


Why did they get worse if according to you they employed the "3rd greatest SG of all time"? Yes it is making my point, and it's not diminishing Wade the way you think it is. Shaq powered that finals team; Wade was Robin. No shame in that. But it's also why the sentence that led this whole thing off - Miller accomplished more than Wade when both were indisputable alphas of their teams - is true.

1. I never called Wade the 3rd greatest SG of all time.

2. It's not making your point. It is simply illustrating that when a team loses an all time great player, the team gets worse. It's funny you thought that had to be researched.

3. Miller did not accomplish more than Wade, as has been illustrated in this very thread. There's no reasonable argument to make that Miller's accolades > Wade's.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:01 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Early on Oscar was every bit a PG like Clyde Frazier was. No one considered him a SG until Milwaukee, and even then he still was more point than shooting.



Well, someone has to walk the ball up. The NBA has never been known for the kind of ball pressure that you see certain college teams apply. So ballhandling, which is the signature of a real point guard, isn't as critical in the NBA.

You could argue that Scottie Pippen was a point guard. He certainly could not perform that role against a team that was pressing.

I think Frazier is a fair comparison for Robertson with regard to playing style. I wouldn't really call either one a "point guard." But I guess if one guard has to be called that, it would have been them. Just like Curry.

I generally agree with your last two positions, less so with Clyde and Oscar. At the same time because of the length and old nature of playing, 40 minutes of hell is out of the question, but when the Bulls put on the Doberman defense, it was as close as one could get.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:02 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
I'm pretty sure that it was the one with Shaq (who never missed a chance to call it Wade's team and city to this day)


How did Miami do when part-time consultant/employee/contractor Shaq left and CEO Wade took command?

Wade was hurt in 2007 and then in 2008 he was 3rd in MVP voting and carried an abysmal supporting cast to the playoffs. Not sure what more you are looking for but this doesn't help your argument

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:04 pm 
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Brick wrote:
shakes wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Outside of shakes, whole thread is filled with straight up abysmal takes :lol:


threads like this remind me why i stopped posting in this section this year.

Me too.

Can you do us all a favor and please keep up the good work? Just Asking For A Favor!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:07 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
You guys are guilty of some serious revisionism if you think wade was the "indisputable alpha" of the 2004 team. If he was alpha why did they drop off so much after Shaq left? Be better.

Shaq was on the Lakers in 2004

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:08 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Outside of shakes, whole thread is filled with straight up abysmal takes :lol:



Wrong.

He's the only person in the thread that sounds like they have watched an NBA game before.

:lol: there he is!

Yep!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:09 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Outside of shakes, whole thread is filled with straight up abysmal takes :lol:



Wrong.

He's the only person in the thread that sounds like they have watched an NBA game before.

:lol: That didn't take long.

Nope!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:10 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Riley in 2006

Wade is "the best player in the world".

Again, a handful of years of remarkable play, then his body started failing him. It's really the only legit reason you can make an argument that he isn't top ten.


Yeah, he had 4 or 5 great years, but I couldn't put him after Kobe and Jordan. I'm not sure where I would put him on my list, but I know it ain't 3rd.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:11 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Early on Oscar was every bit a PG like Clyde Frazier was. No one considered him a SG until Milwaukee, and even then he still was more point than shooting.



Well, someone has to walk the ball up. The NBA has never been known for the kind of ball pressure that you see certain college teams apply. So ballhandling, which is the signature of a real point guard, isn't as critical in the NBA.

You could argue that Scottie Pippen was a point guard. He certainly could not perform that role against a team that was pressing.

I think Frazier is a fair comparison for Robertson with regard to playing style. I wouldn't really call either one a "point guard." But I guess if one guard has to be called that, it would have been them. Just like Curry.

I generally agree with your last two positions, less so with Clyde and Oscar. At the same time because of the length and old nature of playing, 40 minutes of hell is out of the question, but when the Bulls put on the Doberman defense, it was as close as one could get.


I was at the playoff game vs Orlando in the second round during the first leg on the second 3peat. The year after Orlando eliminated the Bulls when MJ came back fat. In the game I was at the Magic were up 20+ points at halftime. Johnny Bach released the dobermans in the 3rd quarter with MJ, Scottie and Harper full court pressing the Magic from the start. I swear to God the magic barely got the ball over half court the rest of the game and got run right out of the building.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:12 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Outside of shakes, whole thread is filled with straight up abysmal takes :lol:



Wrong.

He's the only person in the thread that sounds like they have watched an NBA game before.



He sounds like he's watched over a specific twenty year span and is completely locked into that era. Sort of like Barkley. The NBA evolved to a peak when he and Mike played and has now declined with "soft" guys like Durant. It's bullshit. If you don't think Oscar Robertson was pounds better than Dwyane Wade, your opinion means ZERO.

I think Oscar was better than Wade. It seems like you think Oscar was a SG. He was not. He was a PG.



How are you going to parse the positions? Is Kobe a "small forward" or a "shooting guard"? Robertson did things shooting guards do. Just like Steph Curry. You can call him a point guard if you're trying to get hiim out of the way to make a case for Wade. But if you have to do that, you're pretty much acknowledging that Wade may not be as great as you're insisting.


I don't recall seeing any all time great PG lists that had Oscar Robertson on it. If so then you'd hear his name come up right alongside Magic's as the best ever at it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:12 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Riley in 2006

Wade is "the best player in the world".

Again, a handful of years of remarkable play, then his body started failing him. It's really the only legit reason you can make an argument that he isn't top ten.


Yeah, he had 4 or 5 great years, but I couldn't put him after Kobe and Jordan. I'm not sure where I would put him on my list, but I know it ain't 3rd.

He shouldn't be above Jordan, Kobe, or West. He's quite obviously ahead of Reggie Miller and Mitch Ritchmond.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:14 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
You're missing the correlation - the team fails to perform even when Wade performs. The team only performed when Shaq was Shaq. When Shaq left and Wade as at his absolute peak they achieved nothing.

Oh, so a team got worse when one of the 15 best players of all time declined and then left? Brilliant work detective. It's not making the argument you think it's making though.


Why did they get worse if according to you they employed the "3rd greatest SG of all time"? Yes it is making my point, and it's not diminishing Wade the way you think it is. Shaq powered that finals team; Wade was Robin. No shame in that. But it's also why the sentence that led this whole thing off - Miller accomplished more than Wade when both were indisputable alphas of their teams - is true.

1. I never called Wade the 3rd greatest SG of all time.

2. It's not making your point. It is simply illustrating that when a team loses an all time great player, the team gets worse. It's funny you thought that had to be researched.

3. Miller did not accomplish more than Wade, as has been illustrated in this very thread. There's no reasonable argument to make that Miller's accolades > Wade's.


Thanks for confirming Wade won his pre-Lebron ring when teamed with an "all time great player." The thing that triggered this debate is when you disagreed that Wade was not the undisputable alpha of the 2006 title team. I accept your concession.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:15 pm 
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It is indisputable that Wade was the best player on the 2006 Heat team. He also is the primary reason that they won the Finals that year. As evidenced by his winning MVP of the Finals and ending Josh Howard's career essentially.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:15 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Thanks for confirming Wade won his pre-Lebron ring when teamed with an "all time great player." The thing that triggered this debate is when you disagreed that Wade was not the undisputable alpha of the 2006 title team. I accept your concession.


I guess MJ was never an alpha since he never won a title without an all time great next to him.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:17 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Riley in 2006

Wade is "the best player in the world".

Again, a handful of years of remarkable play, then his body started failing him. It's really the only legit reason you can make an argument that he isn't top ten.


Yeah, he had 4 or 5 great years, but I couldn't put him after Kobe and Jordan. I'm not sure where I would put him on my list, but I know it ain't 3rd.

I loved how he played. Strong as hell, yet agile. Derrick was like that too.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:18 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Riley in 2006

Wade is "the best player in the world".

Again, a handful of years of remarkable play, then his body started failing him. It's really the only legit reason you can make an argument that he isn't top ten.


Yeah, he had 4 or 5 great years, but I couldn't put him after Kobe and Jordan. I'm not sure where I would put him on my list, but I know it ain't 3rd.

He shouldn't be above Jordan, Kobe, or West. He's quite obviously ahead of Reggie Miller and Mitch Ritchmond.


I can understand the longevity argument for Miller. I'm not saying that I agree with it, but there is an argument.

I'm bothered by a prime Wade turning his team over to LeBron. Knowing LeBron wasn't ready to be the alpha. I can't see any other all time great doing that without a fight. That bothers me.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:18 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
You're missing the correlation - the team fails to perform even when Wade performs. The team only performed when Shaq was Shaq. When Shaq left and Wade as at his absolute peak they achieved nothing.

Oh, so a team got worse when one of the 15 best players of all time declined and then left? Brilliant work detective. It's not making the argument you think it's making though.


Why did they get worse if according to you they employed the "3rd greatest SG of all time"? Yes it is making my point, and it's not diminishing Wade the way you think it is. Shaq powered that finals team; Wade was Robin. No shame in that. But it's also why the sentence that led this whole thing off - Miller accomplished more than Wade when both were indisputable alphas of their teams - is true.

1. I never called Wade the 3rd greatest SG of all time.

2. It's not making your point. It is simply illustrating that when a team loses an all time great player, the team gets worse. It's funny you thought that had to be researched.

3. Miller did not accomplish more than Wade, as has been illustrated in this very thread. There's no reasonable argument to make that Miller's accolades > Wade's.


Thanks for confirming Wade won his pre-Lebron ring when teamed with an "all time great player." The thing that triggered this debate is when you disagreed that Wade was not the undisputable alpha of the 2006 title team. I accept your concession.

I've never denied Shaq was an all time great player. Of course he was. And he still was for a year or two with Miami. He just wasn't as good as Wade at that time, something that is pretty obvious if you watched the team that year and something Shaq has always conceded.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:19 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Nas wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Riley in 2006

Wade is "the best player in the world".

Again, a handful of years of remarkable play, then his body started failing him. It's really the only legit reason you can make an argument that he isn't top ten.


Yeah, he had 4 or 5 great years, but I couldn't put him after Kobe and Jordan. I'm not sure where I would put him on my list, but I know it ain't 3rd.

I loved how he played. Strong as hell, yet agile. Derrick was like that too.


Agreed. Rose had more juice, and Wade had more basketball intelligence.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:23 pm 
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Reggie Miller isn't even in the top 10 of all time 2 guards to ever play the game.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:24 pm 
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The Missing Link wrote:
Reggie Miller isn't even in the top 10 of all time 2 guards to ever play the game.


His peak wasn't near Wade's, but he played at an elite level for longer.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:25 pm 
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shakes wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Early on Oscar was every bit a PG like Clyde Frazier was. No one considered him a SG until Milwaukee, and even then he still was more point than shooting.



Well, someone has to walk the ball up. The NBA has never been known for the kind of ball pressure that you see certain college teams apply. So ballhandling, which is the signature of a real point guard, isn't as critical in the NBA.

You could argue that Scottie Pippen was a point guard. He certainly could not perform that role against a team that was pressing.

I think Frazier is a fair comparison for Robertson with regard to playing style. I wouldn't really call either one a "point guard." But I guess if one guard has to be called that, it would have been them. Just like Curry.

I generally agree with your last two positions, less so with Clyde and Oscar. At the same time because of the length and old nature of playing, 40 minutes of hell is out of the question, but when the Bulls put on the Doberman defense, it was as close as one could get.


I was at the playoff game vs Orlando in the second round during the first leg on the second 3peat. The year after Orlando eliminated the Bulls when MJ came back fat. In the game I was at the Magic were up 20+ points at halftime. Johnny Bach released the dobermans in the 3rd quarter with MJ, Scottie and Harper full court pressing the Magic from the start. I swear to God the magic barely got the ball over half court the rest of the game and got run right out of the building.


It wasn't/isn't common in the NBA though. I remember when Pitino came to the Celtics and tried to implement a press regularly. He didn't last long in the league.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:26 pm 
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Nas wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Reggie Miller isn't even in the top 10 of all time 2 guards to ever play the game.


His peak wasn't near Wade's, but he played at an elite level for longer.


They're different types of players. Miller was really just a shooter.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:26 pm 
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Nas wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Reggie Miller isn't even in the top 10 of all time 2 guards to ever play the game.


His peak wasn't near Wade's, but he played at an elite level for longer.

He played at a good level for longer. He was never elite.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:27 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Knowing LeBron wasn't ready to be the alpha.


LeBron was born Alpha. Undisputed GOAT.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:28 pm 
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Nas wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Reggie Miller isn't even in the top 10 of all time 2 guards to ever play the game.


His peak wasn't near Wade's, but he played at an elite level for longer.

He played longer that is for sure. Elite is a matter of semantics. For most of his career I wouldn't even place him top 5 at his position.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:30 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Knowing LeBron wasn't ready to be the alpha.


LeBron was born Alpha. Undisputed GOAT.


LeBron is a reluctant alpha. He's a more passive Magic with Karl Malone's body. He would have killed to have someone who was willing to take and make big shots.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:32 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Reggie Miller isn't even in the top 10 of all time 2 guards to ever play the game.


His peak wasn't near Wade's, but he played at an elite level for longer.

He played at a good level for longer. He was never elite.


That may be fair, but Reggie from 97 to about 2003 was elite. He just couldn't win the big one with his style of play. He definitely had TWTW.

Edit: It looks like it was 96-01. He pushed the Bulls more than anyone after the Pistons years.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:49 pm 
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If Wade wasn't married to LeBron, he could have joined that Bulls team and owned the league for about 5+ years with Rose.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:54 pm 
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Nas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Reggie Miller isn't even in the top 10 of all time 2 guards to ever play the game.


His peak wasn't near Wade's, but he played at an elite level for longer.

He played at a good level for longer. He was never elite.


That may be fair, but Reggie from 97 to about 2003 was elite. He just couldn't win the big one with his style of play. He definitely had TWTW.

Edit: It looks like it was 96-01. He pushed the Bulls more than anyone after the Pistons years.

I agree Reggie was clutch and stepped up his game in the playoffs. I need you to be one of the 10 best players in the league at some point during your career to call you elite. He never was.

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