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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I think Turner could improve slightly but I don't think he will have a big leap that we typically see from top picks over the course of their rookie contracts. I'm fairly confident he will never be an All Star and that his ceiling is a solid starter. His best chance to make a real impact is to focus as much on defense as possible because he does have All Defensive team potential if he works hard on that end but I just don't see anything from him that leads me to believe he will be better than Wall all around. If Wall was paired with Adelman or Carlisle I think this discussion would look very silly very quickly. But even if he never reaches his potential it would take an Arenas-esque fall from grace for Turner to end up as the better pro. Unlike Arenas though, Wall is a willing, gifted passer. That combined with his athleticism(Rose's level), and it's hard seeing him not getting better.
So do you think that Wall will be an All-Star and when will it happen? He seems very far away from that right now.

It's gonna be tough in the East. We all know about Rose and I'm pretty much Rondo's biggest fan here. I think he will make multiple All Star appearances in his career and I'd say 2013-2014 will be his first one if I was forced to pick when but it's very dependent on their next coach and then obviously his work ethic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Turner 2 assists shy of a triple double tonight


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:53 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Turner 2 assists shy of a triple double tonight

:lol: I saw that. Doesn't change my opinion of him but it was obviously a very good game.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Career Averages

John Wall - 105 games, 16.8 ppg, 8.1 apg, 4.7 rpg, .417 FG%, .780 FT%, 1.6 spg

Evan Turner - 114 games, 7.4 ppg, 2.2 apg, 4.4 rpg, .425 FG%, .754 FT%, .5 spg

And Turner plays for one of the better coaches in the league while Wall plays for one of the most dysfunctional teams in the league and might have the most selfish teammates in the league. He's averaging 8 assists a game with terrible teammates on pretty much talent alone. He would be a force on Philly's roster with Collins coaching him.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:36 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Career Averages

John Wall - 105 games, 16.8 ppg, 8.1 apg, 4.7 rpg, .417 FG%, .780 FT%, 1.6 spg

Evan Turner - 114 games, 7.4 ppg, 2.2 apg, 4.4 rpg, .425 FG%, .754 FT%, .5 spg

And Turner plays for one of the better coaches in the league while Wall plays for one of the most dysfunctional teams in the league and might have the most selfish teammates in the league. He's averaging 8 assists a game with terrible teammates on pretty much talent alone. He would be a force on Philly's roster with Collins coaching him.
Evan Turner is putting up those numbers in 23.2 MPG. John Wall is doing that in 37.5 MPG.

Seems a little unfair to compare those numbers without that.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:01 pm 
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That's true but the 48 minute numbers still favor Wall pretty heavily and there's probably a reason Turner is getting only 23 minutes a game.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:09 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
That's true but the 48 minute numbers still favor Wall pretty heavily and there's probably a reason Turner is getting only 23 minutes a game.
Of course Wall will have more assists. He's a pg. That's basically a wash with Turner having more rebounds. Wall has a small advantage in scoring but you'd have to think that part of that comes from Wall being the primary offensive option. It's the same reason that Jarrett Jack has inflated numbers.

It's not worth debating why Turner isn't playing as much since it's not relevant. Wall plays on a terrible team who can only hope that Wall becomes a star. Turner plays on a team that is good. We won't really know what Turner is until he's given the chance to prove himself.

Basically, it's hard to compare the numbers right now. Even you have to admit that Wall has been a disappointment judged on his own.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:15 pm 
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He has been a disappointment, Turner has been a bust. Turner has been given a chance. Philly is good but they aren't the '86 Celtics or something. If John Wall was on that team he would be getting at least 30 minutes per game and have great numbers. Wall is actually the one not being given a fair NBA shot. He's on a team with terrible management, his second best player doubles as the dumbest player in the NBA in the past decade, and everyone else on his team is selfish, bad, or both. He hasn't come close to playing for someone we would consider a good NBA coach yet. If he was given a real coach and some good veteran teammates(like Rondo had for example), he would probably be much better off than what we are seeing now.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:19 pm 
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yeah i mean to be fair one reason Turner doesn't play as much is that the Sixers are pretty deep in the backcourt
realistic or not, the Sixers are also trying to 'win now' so veterans are going to be favored over younger players like Turner


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:22 pm 
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So Evan Turner, who has started 14 career games has been given a shot, but John Wall, who has started 100 games has not?

Turner may be a bust, or at least nothing but average, but to say we can already write him off because he hasn't started for a playoff team seems pretty dumb to me.

You make a weak case that this discussion is already over.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So Evan Turner, who has started 14 career games has been given a shot, but John Wall, who has started 100 games has not?

Turner may be a bust, or at least nothing but average, but to say we can already write him off because he hasn't started for a playoff team seems pretty dumb to me.

You make a weak case that this discussion is already over.

Not really. You didn't dispute anything I said. It's pretty obvious John Wall is the better player as of right now. It's not close.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:52 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Not really. You didn't dispute anything I said. It's pretty obvious John Wall is the better player as of right now. It's not close.
I don't feel like arguing the two completely different situations they are in and wildly speculating about how John Wall would be a great player if he had a much better team around him. I disputed your numbers and your idea that Turner has gotten his shot.

I think Turner is going to get a chance at starting in this league eventually and he'll be pretty good. You obviously don't and you think he's gotten his shot and failed.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Only you would refuse to concede you were wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are. Just admit Wall will be the better player.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:16 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Only you would refuse to concede you were wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are. Just admit Wall will be the better player.
What if I don't believe that?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:19 pm 
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right now, yes, Wall is the better player

but i don't think it's all that unreasonable that Turner could develop into a good player. Wall has regressed this year and is putting up numbers in some sense because he is the most talented player on a bad team. Iguduloa is pretty much better than any player the Bullets have, and Holliday, Lou Williams are pretty solid. Yes, if Turner came out and was simply on fire he'd have to get the playing time, but he hasn't. So currently he is lost in the shuffle.

if you're willing to make some excuses for Wall- that he's had bad coaching, etc. you should make the same concessions for Turner, that he hasn't gotten a real opportunity yet. if Wall was really that good he'd be leading his team to more than just a handful of wins.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Wall isn't regressing at all. He had a terrible start this year but in the last 15-20 games he's shot much better whole cutting turnovers and increasing his scoring and assists. His team is awful. Really, really bad. And Flip was a terrible coach. Wall has shown improvement despite having nothing good around him. Turner is actually the one regressing. It's because of his lack of production that he's lost in the shuffle and is getting less minutes than Jodie Meeks.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:29 pm 
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FavreFan,
Do you think Turner will ever be a starter in this league?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan,
Do you think Turner will ever be a starter in this league?

It's very possible. Derek Fisher is a starter in this league. Ill be pretty shocked if he becomes a better player than Wall at any point in his career though.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:40 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Wall isn't regressing at all. He had a terrible start this year but in the last 15-20 games he's shot much better whole cutting turnovers and increasing his scoring and assists..



compared to last year, his numbers are essentially the same. he's shooting slightly better percentage wise and scoring a bit more, but his assists are down and his turnovers are up . he's averaging over 4 turnovers a game, that's pretty bad.

if he's not regressing, he's at the very least stagnating. i would expect a #1 pick to improve. i understand his team is bad, but that is at least some reflection on him. isn't the hope when you draft someone #1 overall that they'll improve your team? i'm not saying i expect them to be a playoff team, but they're the 2nd worst team in the league. i'd expect he could lead them to at least a little better than that


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:41 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
It's very possible. Derek Fisher is a starter in this league. Ill be pretty shocked if he becomes a better player than Wall at any point in his career though.
If this is the case how can you be so certain about Turner's future?
immessedup17 wrote:
Assists are more valuable than rebounds.

For a pg. Not for a sg or anyone else.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:49 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Assists are directly related to points scored. Rebounds are not. Points are the name of the game.
Fair enough.

Why then do you think that Luol Deng is as good as Carmelo Anthony?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:51 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
It's very possible. Derek Fisher is a starter in this league. Ill be pretty shocked if he becomes a better player than Wall at any point in his career though.
If this is the case how can you be so certain about Turner's future?
immessedup17 wrote:
Assists are more valuable than rebounds.

For a pg. Not for a sg or anyone else.

Assists are directly related to points scored. Rebounds are not. Points are the name of the game.

Lebron James is leading the Heat in assists. He is a SF. They are 28-8.

If a C is averaging a double double in points or assists, it is good, but not amazing.

A PG that averages 10 assists and 10 points a game is harder to get, and better for the team.


Seems to be helping Washington.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Wall isn't regressing at all. He had a terrible start this year but in the last 15-20 games he's shot much better whole cutting turnovers and increasing his scoring and assists..



compared to last year, his numbers are essentially the same. he's shooting slightly better percentage wise and scoring a bit more, but his assists are down and his turnovers are up . he's averaging over 4 turnovers a game, that's pretty bad.

if he's not regressing, he's at the very least stagnating. i would expect a #1 pick to improve. i understand his team is bad, but that is at least some reflection on him. isn't the hope when you draft someone #1 overall that they'll improve your team? i'm not saying i expect them to be a playoff team, but they're the 2nd worst team in the league. i'd expect he could lead them to at least a little better than that

Wall hasn't been phenomenal or anything but that's not really my argument. Its clear he's better than Turner so far. You can't even make a case that Turner will become better outside of "hey, it could happen". Theres no reason to think be will be.

As for the Wizards being this bad, I don't think that's Wall's fault. I guess it's an indication he's not a superstar but his team is really bad. When he gets better players around him his assists will likely go higher and turnovers down.

Also he's not stagnating. His numbers in the last month are considerably better then the first two months of the season.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:55 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Lebron James is leading the Heat in assists. He is a SF. They are 28-8.
:lol: Lebron James? He's averaging nearly 28 ppg.
immessedup17 wrote:
If a C is averaging a double double in points or assists, it is good, but not amazing.

A PG that averages 10 assists and 10 points a game is harder to get, and better for the team.
There is one player in the league averaging over 10 assists per game. Please choose better examples.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:57 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Assists are directly related to points scored. Rebounds are not. Points are the name of the game.

Not true. Rebounding rates are a much better indicator of overall team success than ppg.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:59 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
That is why it is a perfect example, genius. Because not many players can do it.

It is harder to do.
It's not a fair comparison though. It would be like saying assists are more important than points because 1 player gets at least 10 assists per game but 90 players score at least 10 points a game.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:00 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Wall hasn't been phenomenal or anything but that's not really my argument. Its clear he's better than Turner so far. You can't even make a case that Turner will become better outside of "hey, it could happen". Theres no reason to think be will be.


agree and disagree. i understand in the context of this specific argument, Wall is better than Turner right now. I do disagree in that I think Turner has shown some flashes, he has had some nice games...it's not just a complete stab in the dark that he could become more consistent given the playing time.


FavreFan wrote:
As for the Wizards being this bad, I don't think that's Wall's fault. I guess it's an indication he's not a superstar but his team is really bad. When he gets better players around him his assists will likely go higher and turnovers down.


Sure I could see his assists going higher but i'm not sure how his turnovers would go down with better players. because he'd be handling the ball less? he's a pg.

FavreFan wrote:
Also he's not stagnating. His numbers in the last month are considerably better then the first two months of the season.


so he's in the middle of 'hot' stretch....i'm comparing season totals from last year to this year, so that hot stretch he just had is included in that. even with that, the overall numbers are still relatively the same. i'll concede that he isn't regressing but he certainly isn't improving at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:04 pm 
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I'm not sure what youre trying to explain imu. Rebounding rates are more important to a teams winning percentage than ppg is. That's a fact.

Bagels - Wall's turnovers would go down if he had a good system and smarter, better players around him. That just stands to reason. And his "hot stretch" is covering 20% of his overall career.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:06 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
You tried making the comparison, not me.

You said Turner's rebounds washes out Wall's assists.
Don't backtrack now.

For a pg, assists are incredibly important. For a shooting guard, it can be but most of the time it's not more important than rebounds. Otherwise, there are some players that are considered really good that aren't.

The greatest shooting guard in NBA history averaged 5.3 assists per game. That's lower than Andre Miller. I've never heard anyone argue that Jordan wasn't good because he didn't get enough assists. It's because no one cared. Shooting guards are meant to score.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:08 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I'm not sure what youre trying to explain imu. Rebounding rates are more important to a teams winning percentage than ppg is. That's a fact.

Bagels - Wall's turnovers would go down if he had a good system and smarter, better players around him. That just stands to reason. And his "hot stretch" is covering 20% of his overall career.


so 20% of his career his more important to look at than 100% of his career? :lol:
just saying, they're called averages for a reason. if he is able to keep up this hot stretch and improve his averages to reflect that, i'll certainly recant

and i would tend to agree that a better system and better players around him would lead to less turnovers, but it may just be a product of the type of player he his.


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