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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Stern is insane

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NBA wants marked drop in player costs

NEW YORK -- NBA commissioner David Stern says there was no quantifiable progress in collective bargaining talks over the summer, and the league has revealed it is seeking a reduction in player salary costs by about one-third.

Stern says the league wants player costs to drop by about $750 million to $800 million. Deputy commissioner Adam Silver says the NBA currently spends about $2.1 billion annually in player salaries and benefits.

Stern completed two days of meetings Thursday with his owners, who are seeking major changes to the current CBA that expires June 30. Silver says the league has repeatedly told the union that owners are in a "diseconomic situation," with projected losses of about $340 million to $350 million this season.


So let me get this straight. The owners want $750-$800 million dollars cut in salary, and they had projected losses of $340-$350 million this season. So basically they want to pad their pockets a couple hundred million dollars while players give up about a third of what they make? Start the lockout countdown, the two sides are not even close. Maybe if teams didn't sign guys like Eddy Curry to contracts worth around $60 million, they wouldn't be having the problems they have right now.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Stern is a genius. He won't get that but he's going to absolutely dominate the players in this.

There are too many players who simply cannot afford to not have a season.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:58 pm 
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I can't really blame Stern for playing hardball here. It will be interesting to see how long they end up being locked out for I can't imagine the players will want to lose a whole season.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:59 pm 
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Scab players. That's how Jordan is going to score his 100 points.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:00 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Stern is a genius. He won't get that but he's going to absolutely dominate the players in this.

There are too many players who simply cannot afford to not have a season.


I think it sucks in general as NBA fan...but as a business I can see your point Brick

Bottom line there are too many large contracts given to players who a) aren't going to be difference makers in terms of winning a title and b) aren't going to be "box office" draws.

But as DB says....it's basically the owners fault. Did Eddy Curry decide to just give himself a ridiculous contract? As usual it seems like the owners want to protect themselves FROM themselves, but now want to get paid on top of that. Insane.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Stern is a genius. He won't get that but he's going to absolutely dominate the players in this.

There are too many players who simply cannot afford to not have a season.

Good point.

I just think it's the mid-level players that are killing some teams. There are only a handful of guys who should command max dollars in the NBA. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Kobe, Durant, and maybe a couple others. Guys like Joe Johnson, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis, AK 47, Michael Redd, etc, do not put butts in the seats and shouldn't be dragging payrolls down with their max or near max deals.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:03 pm 
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Can someone explain this to me.

Why is it that when baseball has a work stoppage, it's a strike, but when basketball does it, it's a lockout?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Stern is a genius. He won't get that but he's going to absolutely dominate the players in this.

There are too many players who simply cannot afford to not have a season.

Good point.

I just think it's the mid-level players that are killing some teams. There are only a handful of guys who should command max dollars in the NBA. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Kobe, Durant, and maybe a couple others. Guys like Joe Johnson, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis, AK 47, Michael Redd, etc, do not put butts in the seats and shouldn't be dragging payrolls down with their max or near max deals.

At least quote Simmons if your gonna post that, its close to verbatim.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:05 pm 
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lipidquadcab wrote:
Can someone explain this to me.

Why is it that when baseball has a work stoppage, it's a strike, but when basketball does it, it's a lockout?

It's all about who starts it lipid

When baseball had it's stoppage in early 90 or 91, it was the owners locking the players out. 94 was the players walking out.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:08 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Stern is a genius. He won't get that but he's going to absolutely dominate the players in this.

There are too many players who simply cannot afford to not have a season.

Good point.

I just think it's the mid-level players that are killing some teams. There are only a handful of guys who should command max dollars in the NBA. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Kobe, Durant, and maybe a couple others. Guys like Joe Johnson, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis, AK 47, Michael Redd, etc, do not put butts in the seats and shouldn't be dragging payrolls down with their max or near max deals.


Omer Asik deserves a max contract

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:08 pm 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
lipidquadcab wrote:
Can someone explain this to me.

Why is it that when baseball has a work stoppage, it's a strike, but when basketball does it, it's a lockout?

It's all about who starts it lipid

When baseball had it's stoppage in early 90 or 91, it was the owners locking the players out. 94 was the players walking out.

Interesting...I don't remember the baseball lockout you speak of...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:10 pm 
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lipidquadcab wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
It's all about who starts it lipid

When baseball had it's stoppage in early 90 or 91, it was the owners locking the players out. 94 was the players walking out.

Interesting...I don't remember the baseball lockout you speak of...

If I remember correctly, it happend during spring training

In fact, here's the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Major ... ll_lockout

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Here is one of the problems I see in the NBA.

Drafts are done almost completely on potential. Take a look at the draft. Most of the guys really suck right now. Once you get past the first few picks it ends up being about 50% of the time when that player is NBA ready right now. Take for instance, Hasheem Thabeet. He was the #2 pick in the draft. He just flat out can't play basketball. Now, he could be amazing in 3 or 4 years but right now he's really bad. NBA benches are filled with people like this. The talent in the NBA is severly limited because so many players are there on potential alone. Someone like Glen Davis, who was a pretty good college player, and has proven to be a decent NBA player, is one of the rare exceptions of a player who makes it besides already have reached his ceiling.

Therefore, you have to overpay for players because there just isn't that much available to you because most of these players fizzle out or really don't meet expectations. Add in the fact that you have idiots who don't understand that these players aren't that good and will outbid you. Therefore, your choice is to be conservative and never sign anyone and suck or overpay and hope that they work out better than expected.

Can you blame Atlanta for signing Joe Johnson? Not really. Someone else would have paid him and Atlanta had no better options. That's why the system needs reform. Too many GM's have to make a choice between making a stupid signing or letting someone go and looking cheap or like you don't care.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:20 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
At least quote Simmons if your gonna post that, its close to verbatim.

:lol: :lol:

That's true, I did lift the thought from Simmons, but I didn't pull out his book and copy it word for word. The guy does make sense though. Look at the highest paid players right now in the NBA.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:22 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Here is one of the problems I see in the NBA.

Drafts are done almost completely on potential. Take a look at the draft. Most of the guys really suck right now. Once you get past the first few picks it ends up being about 50% of the time when that player is NBA ready right now. Take for instance, Hasheem Thabeet. He was the #2 pick in the draft. He just flat out can't play basketball. Now, he could be amazing in 3 or 4 years but right now he's really bad. NBA benches are filled with people like this. The talent in the NBA is severly limited because so many players are there on potential alone. Someone like Glen Davis, who was a pretty good college player, and has proven to be a decent NBA player, is one of the rare exceptions of a player who makes it besides already have reached his ceiling.

Therefore, you have to overpay for players because there just isn't that much available to you because most of these players fizzle out or really don't meet expectations. Add in the fact that you have idiots who don't understand that these players aren't that good and will outbid you. Therefore, your choice is to be conservative and never sign anyone and suck or overpay and hope that they work out better than expected.

Can you blame Atlanta for signing Joe Johnson? Not really. Someone else would have paid him and Atlanta had no better options. That's why the system needs reform. Too many GM's have to make a choice between making a stupid signing or letting someone go and looking cheap or like you don't care.


I partially agree with you...I think because in the NBA the total amount of players and talent pool in general is smaller than other leagues it may force seemingly bad decisions like the Joe Johnson deal. I don't want to interpret what you're saying but what I'm taking from it is you're saying that for instance with the Twins in baseball, you can have a model where you draft well and play young, for the most part. In the NBA it's a lot harder to do that, you almost HAVE to sign an established veteran or a big money player. We joked about it last night during the fantasy draft but Hubie Brown KINDA tried to do that with the 2 five man rotations.

But every time...I just can't help but go back and blame the GM's....sure, Jerome James is a terrible player but there's some guy out there in this world who felt he deserved millions of dollars to play basketball for a living. Whoever that guy is, he's the problem


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
At least quote Simmons if your gonna post that, its close to verbatim.

:lol: :lol:

That's true, I did lift the thought from Simmons, but I didn't pull out his book and copy it word for word. The guy does make sense though. Look at the highest paid players right now in the NBA.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm


How in the hell is Peja Stoyakavich the 19th highest paid player in the NBA?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Wow. That list right there is what's wrong with the league. Good lord.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
How in the hell is Peja Stoyakavich the 19th highest paid player in the NBA?

The contract looks real bad with how broken down he has become. Even when he was at his best, he didn't deserve anywhere near that money.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Phil McCracken wrote:
How in the hell is Peja Stoyakavich the 19th highest paid player in the NBA?

The contract looks real bad with how broken down he has become. Even when he was at his best, he didn't deserve anywhere near that money.


Would rather still be paying 15M for Vlade Divac

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Vlade deserved a max deal simply for his flopping skills.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:42 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Vlade deserved a max deal simply for his flopping skills.


Nobody bothered Shaq as much as Vlade though. Those Lakers vs. Kings games were always awesome. Especially when Walton was doing the games.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:43 pm 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Vlade deserved a max deal simply for his flopping skills.


Nobody bothered Shaq as much as Vlade though. Those Lakers vs. Kings games were always awesome. Especially when Walton was doing the games.


and especially when Tim Donaghy was reffing


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:44 pm 
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Not sure if this was mentioned and I missed it, but one thing they may address is change the status of guaranteed contracts. The teams have made some mistakes overpaying, which are then compounded when you cannot dump a guy. Let the team pay a fee to dump a guy and not have to overpay for an additional 3 - 5 years. See Eddy Curry. Problem is that was just stupid money from the beginning. That team should have to pay the price for a stupid move like that, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Where is FavreFan for this topic?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:47 pm 
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People complain about the NFL and a teams ability to dump players, saying it should be more like the NBA or MLB. Now people are going to say the NBA should be more like the NFL? Can't have it both ways. Well....you can, but that may be considered gay...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
and especially when Tim Donaghy was reffing


Yeah that was the one major problem with that....The Game 6 that he reffed was an all time screw job by a Ref in a major sport. But the Refs in the NBA have always sucked even if they weren't gambling on the games. They still suck for that matter. Stern should lock the refs out.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:47 pm 
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How much will Isiah Thomas no longer working in the Association help the owners, as well?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Krazy Ivan wrote:
People complain about the NFL and a teams ability to dump players, saying it should be more like the NBA or MLB. Now people are going to say the NBA should be more like the NFL? Can't have it both ways. Well....you can, but that may be considered gay...

I think if there was some kind of escape clause in contracts that it wouldn't be a bad thing. Let's say when you are 50% of the way through the deal, you have the option of buying out the remainder of the deal at 50% percent of the remaining money. Give the owners 1 chance to end the deal, if you decide to keep him, then you are on the hook for the rest of the contract. Teams would still be penalized for horrible moves, but players could still claim some of the money, and sign elsewhere if they're cut. I don't think the NBA should give owners the power to cut players at any time they want and not have any sort of major penalty.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:56 pm 
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It seems like the owners have consistently won concessions in recent years. Off the top of my head...
>they got a flexible cap replaced with one which includes a luxury tax.
>they got draft picks slotted and locked in for 3 yrs + an option
>they developed a formula for to limit "max" salaried players (no more Jordan or KG mega-bucks).
>they force players to attend a year in college (or play overseas)
>Didn't they also get an agreement where the players had to return money if their profits dropped?

IMO, the players union is almost as bad as the NFL's.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:36 pm 
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Now this I really don't understand. Why would current players want to lower the age limit that has been in place for 5 years? Don't they realize that by getting rid of the age limit they will be putting jobs of veteran players in jeparody? I really think a lockout is coming this summer. Both sides are miles apart.

Quote:
Players seek end of age restriction

The NBA owners aren't the only ones looking to alter the landscape of the league over the next several seasons through the league's collective bargaining agreement.

While the owners want to do away with the soft salary cap and guaranteed contracts, the players hope to end the age restriction that forbids players from entering the NBA directly out of high school.

"We want to go back to the way it was," a source from the NBA Players Association said. "The players have always been philosophically opposed to it. The vast majority of players feel a player should have the right to make a living. If he has the talent and wants to make money to help his family, he should have that right. It's just a matter of principle."

NBA Players Association executive director Billy Hunter sent an audio podcast detailing the union's proposal to every player last week. The proposal, which includes the end of the age restriction, have been obtained by ESPN.com and confirmed by a union source.

In its proposal, the union, while rejecting the owners' call for a hard salary cap and salary reductions, is also willing to negotiate a reduction in league revenue guarantees for players. the union also proposes rule changes that would provide more flexibility for sign-and-trade deals.

The age restriction, which requires a player to be at least 19 years old during the calendar year of the draft as well as at least one year removed from his high school graduation class, has been in place since the 2005-2006 season. A league spokesman refused to comment when asked Wednesday about the union's proposed change to the age restriction.

The league did not address the age requirement specifically in the collective bargaining proposal it submitted to players in February. But Commissioner David Stern's desire has long been to raise the minimum age to 20 rather than to lower it.

While there are much larger issues separating the sides, the age restriction could become a bargaining chip in the stalemated negotiations between owners and players that appear headed toward a lockout next summer.

Hunter said last month he's "99 percent sure" there will be a lockout, and a look at the proposals of each side reveals Hunter may have underestimated the chances of a work stoppage.

The union's contract proposal was given to the owners in July, but it seems to have barely registered with the owners, who have neither provided a counterproposal nor backed off the demands they made in February. The league also refused to comment Wednesday on the details of the union's proposal.

"Our proposal was designed to move the negotiations forward, to be a win-win for both sides," the union source said. "We looked to address some of the owners' concerns and the proposal had elements that would benefit both sides. But the owners have sat on this for five months."

While the union rejects the owners' demands for a hard cap, an $800 million cut in salaries, a shortening of contract lengths, and an elimination of guaranteed contracts, it is willing to negotiate a reduction in the percentage of league revenue players are guaranteed.

Players are currently guaranteed 57 percent of basketball-related income, and the players are willing to remove that guarantee. No new figure was proposed by the union, which is also open to considering adjustments to revenue formulas for owners who build new arenas or significantly renovate existing ones.

The Players Association also proposed, according to the podcast, "enhanced trade and signing flexibility." Basically, it wants to change the system in a way that would make it easier for teams to make trades.

Currently, in trades involving a team that is above the salary cap, the traded players' salaries must fall within 125 percent of one another. The union would like to at least double that percentage. That would make it easier for cash-strapped clubs to receive financial relief by trading away players with large contracts.

The union suggests ending the complicated "base-year compensation" rule that often makes it difficult to pull off trades.

"We want to keep the current system in place, and address some of the owners' concerns within the context of that system," the source said. "We want to keep the soft cap we've had for 30 years and keep salaries tied to revenues."

In the past, the players have had no say in how the owners have shared their revenue among themselves. But with the owners complaining about millions of dollars in annual losses, the union proposed in July that the league incorporate "meaningful revenue sharing."

The players do not believe the burden for giving small-market clubs financial relief should fall entirely upon them. Thus, they're proposing that the league share not only national revenue --such as television contracts, sponsorships and gate receipts -- but also local revenue as well.

The union also suggests the league could give small markets a larger share of the national revenue.

Staunchly against a hard cap, which would eliminate longtime collective bargaining staples such as the Larry Bird exception, the union also noted that it wants to not only keep the mid-level exception but add a second mid-level exception.

In exchange, the players would give up the "bi-annual exception," which is currently worth $2 million, and decrease the maximum length of mid-level contracts from five years to four years.

The players are also looking to shorten the time period (currently seven days) that teams have to match offers for restricted free agents, as well as gain better pension benefits.

The union has been anticipating a lockout for more than a year and has been advising its players regularly to save money in preparation for a work stoppage.

The players are ready to fight to keep the key elements of the current system, as evidenced by the attendance of superstars such as LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Chris Paul at a negotiating meeting in August.

The players were galvanized in part after union representatives showed them power point presentations that explained exactly how much money they would lose if the owners' proposal was accepted. For instance, the $18 million Joe Johnson is slated to make next season would fall to about $11 million under the owners' proposed system, with less than $5 million guaranteed.

The owners are digging in as well, with one source close to several owners saying "they will not budge" from their current proposal. If the two sides haven't moved significantly closer to one another by the February All-Star Break, a lockout would seem inevitable.

"We're not planning to make another proposal, in part because the owners have not made a counterproposal" the union source said. "They don't seem to want to make a deal early."

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