Most of them were probably better at gambling and golf too. Probably only Wilt was better at scoring premium pussy.

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Man I just cannot buy that those guys were better at the overall game of basketball than Jordan.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
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I'm willing to admit it might bias but i do believe Jordan has proved more than any athlete I've seen he is the GOAT if there is one. All the reasons why have been stated ad naeuseum.

Elgin Baylor is the most underrated from that era IMO, from what I've read, seen, and heard.


I wanna name drop for a second. After a game in hs that Izzo was at recruiting our star pg and Shannon brown, we got to talk to Izzo for a few minutes. Someone made a Mikan joke and although Izzo is a laid back guy he said "study elgin Baylor. I'm serious"

I didn't forget that even knowing I wasn't even gonna play college

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FF who was the star PG on your team?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

What do you mean by the "overall game of basketball"? Certainly everyone of those giant motherfuckers was a bigger force on defense than Jordan. They all rebounded far more. They all shot higher percentages except maybe Malone, and he's probably the best rebounder ever. Jordan averaged more points than all of them except Wilt, but he took a lot more shots to do it.

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JORR - even though I disagree with everyone on that list, I'm especially curious as to Shaquille and especially Moses

Ive said multiple times that the 83 sixers are one of my all time favorite teams, and I really do like Moses alot as a player, etc. All that said do we need to go over career EVERYTHING here?

In fact, of Jordan wasn't around inthink you'd be adding 2-3 more centers to that list

MJ, ironically enough, eradicated the myth of needing a big man to win

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Jordan had it all, moreso than anyone else on that list. Sure some of those big guys could do certain things better than Jordan. But none of them had the total package like Jordan did.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

No way was someone like wilt fucking chamberlain better at overall defense than mj was. I don't wanna get too assumptive here out of respect that you saw both and everything but that is just wrong from every basketball historian I've read from

Micheal Jordan and Scottie pippen were just a damn force defensively. MJ is one of the best overall defenders the sport of basketball has ever seen. If you think Kareem was all you're being is nostalgic, right?

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I too respect JORR's acumen and I don't doubt that he's watched a lot of basketball, but JORR tends to be extremely generationally-biased when it comes to NBA ball.

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Johnny reibel. You're not affiliated with Q Panther are you?

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Duncan was great but this talk that Duncan at his peak was better than Kobe at his peak is insane. Saying Barkley was better than Karl Malone is just as wrong.

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The guy has had great games, but never on a night after night basis.

Paul Pierce has almost the same numbers through age 28, plays almost the same game.

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They play completely different positions. Are you really telling me a 6'5" guy who had trouble guarding small quick guys was a better overall defender than a guy who had to handle the best big men night in and night out? In an earlier post you pointed out the current bias against big guys, but now you're indulging in it yourself. Kareem changed the way teams attacked the basket. There's nothing nostalgic about it.

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I've got to disagree there. Why do you think Malone was better than Barkley?

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If we only take into account regular season stats bigfan, its about time to start loaning credence to the fact lebron might be better than mj.

I don't see how you could honestly equate Wade and Pierce, and Pierce has morphed into one of my favorite players

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I don't think that's true. I just don't think all the best players played in the past twenty years. I'd guess Bob Cousy dribbled around better than Chris Paul. The great players are great regardless of when they played. I try to look for comparisons of like guys. Cowens and Nowitzki. Jordan and Baylor. There's no one like Magic.

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Anyway you measure it he was. Even Barkley has admitted this.

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Is he Tony's Reibel's grandson?

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But it isn't really true. Barkley made 54% of his shots and he outrebounded him.

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Disagree, there's a lot of HIV positive guys out there.

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It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

You're smart enough to realize part of the whole "changing ways people did stuff" is completely timeline of sport related

MJ easily guarded 3, at a time or two 4, positions. Many of your guys didn't guard more than 2 at a time when they already were more physically superior to their counterparts.

In another thread I heard you mention MJs speed, strength, and size equate to Wilts physicalt advantages. IMO. That's equivalent to praising Walter paytons physical attributes solely for his success. How can you not see there is so much more to it? Russell had it more than wilt(don't try to school me about the teammates, I know, thank god for the big O). MJ just dominated once he figured it out. If you wanna criticize it for taking awhile or Phil or whatever, that's fine. But after he figured it out he destroyed he NBA.

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Baylor isn't MJ. You should know Cousy didn't have a left. He's one of the few who wouldve been absolutely figured out and neutralized today

I've seen enough of him and heard enough to know the ambidextrous point i
Is just romanticized by time when it came to NBA days

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That's silly. Of course Cousy could play today and he'd be great.

I don't think Baylor was quite the player Jordan was, but they're similar type guys. I have no need to declare one guy "the best ever". All players have different attributes.

As far as defense is concerned, different teams play different ways. The Showtime Lakers just outscored the opposition. It's difficult for me to say Scottie Pippen was better than Worthy who scored more points, rebounded more, and shot 52% from the floor regardless of how great Scottie may have been defensively.

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I thought young hip guys were the stattrackers of the board. Especially in a historical era comparing debate, stats have absolutely no relevance.

Pippen was 10x the defender Big Game was and a better passer, as skilled a rebounder, and overall closer to being a Batman than James was a Robin. Did you forget Jordan's hiatus? Can we discuss anything beyond 1.8 during that time?

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Cousy could play today. Jose calderon can play today.

Obviously hyperbolic but Cousy is not Chris Paul. Chris Paul honestly is better at everything

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Come on. How are you comparing them without stats? Just picking the guys you like better?

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Based on what?

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Agree on the big men being underrated.

Who is better than Hakeem at anything?

Talk about the total package.


And Shaq was unstoppable. Who affected games more than he?

Im not saying theyre better than Jordan. Just saying those guys are underrated. As crazy as that sounds for Shaq, he should have won about 8 MVPs

Well by obviously taking into account all the complexities of advancing generations, more advanced coaching and training, level of competition in the given era, particularly pace of play of the era( even in the shot clock era 30 years ago they averaged 20-30 more possessions per game I believe).

You said the lakers outscored everyone to win. In the west at the time it was certainly true and more often than not in the Finals. But evolution of the sport and schematic and rule changes have dictated a certain shift in stat patterns. That's without even touching human evolution.

What happened when magic wanted to "outscore" pippen. And then Phil and mj, cuz that was the defensive pecking order impact in that series and many believe the shift of the whole series completely.

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I think Hakeem has an argument for best center ever, definitely one for best all around center, but what did you mean by who does anything better than him? Every center JORR named was better than Hakeem at something. Shaquille - inside 5 feet, plus passing. Wilt - again more skilled passer, more skilled scorer. I don't even blame wilt for the obvious inferior footwork because of the coaching evolution. Kareem - much better scorer, by far the best big man at adaptong his game to age. Bill Walton was worlds better at passing than Hakeem if we are generalizing the question.

Shaquille should've only won more than 1-2 MVPs if they changed the rules. That's an older argument of the rose haters today. This is a regular season award. Literally over half the MVP trophies would change hands if we retrofitted these rules

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