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Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
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Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
Apologist wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He's not close to a Hall of Famer. Maybe we should let Bill Freehan and Jim Sundberg in too.



Those guys couldn't hit, they weren't the best catchers in their era...Yadi is, he's also got more cy youngs n rings...terrible analogy.



Freehan was a better hitter than Molina. And are you really awarding Cy Youngs to a catcher??? Molina isn't a better offensive player than Pierzynski.

the hardware is silly and often arbitrary, we've already been over that... and it's hard to know how much to attribute that to the catcher. Was 1985 Doc Gooden so good because he had Gary Carter back there? Probably not, but i'm sure it didn't hurt.

here's another thing I looked at... haven't gotten through 2016 box scores yet, however take this into consideration, since it seems like you esteem winning percentage so much for individual pitchers.

2010-2015 STL W-L
With Molina starting: 449-317 (.586)
Without: 94-96 (.495)

That’s a 70 game difference over less than 5 full seasons worth of games. So it seems his true "wins above replacement" value is not insignifigant.


Well, there's way too much "noise" in there to attribute the difference strictly to Molina. Such "noise" is the argument against a pitcher's winning percentage and starting pitchers have a far greater effect on the game(s) than even the best catcher in baseball. Molina is a better player than whoever the backup catcher is. I would expect his team to do better with him in the game.
Author:  Apologist [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
KDdidit wrote:
Apologist wrote:
KDdidit wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Apologist wrote:
made at a time when baseball was not well understood statistically.



This is a really pompous take and it makes me think of the modern guy laughing at the old medicine show wagon while he orders miracle products from an 800 number on his TV.


No kidding, maybe baseball is "declining" because in tyool 2017 nobody watches anymore because they feel like all they have to do is look up some advanced stats and now they know everything about baseball. Watch baseball games? That's for dinosaurs that just don't get it.

This sounds like a take that only an idiot, or IMU; would find sound.
I watch about 500 games a year (MLB at bat app FTW), and the advanced stats only enhance my enjoyment of the game, as accountants and lawyers will tell you; some stats just flat-out lie, and are used just for arguments' sake. They do not directly influence what my eyes and ears tell me is happening on the field. The real problem is the internet. A few easily-looked up sites can give a fool "ammunition" to provoke unfounded arguments.


Great, you're not one of them, but since you're so defensive about it you understand there are many that fit that description.

hah. Maybe I am defensive as a poster, hence the username. I did threaten to stab a poster here once :lol:

I don't know if it's being defensive, or a general comment on the usage of statistics for argument purposes in general on internet forums (believe me, this board is hardly the worst offender; most posters here are somewhat baseball-savvy) but my take speaks more to the difficulty of quantifying defensive value. If, as JORR states, offense is the one true outcome, inversely, run-prevention is equally important. We can't understand that as readily without watching hundreds of games in the field to really sniff the "eye test", and also the defensive stats we have now are bad or incomplete. defensive WAR would tell you Andruw Jones is a first-ballot HOFer. Most of us would agree watching him, this isn't really the case.

I would probably enjoy taking in a live baseball contest with most of you here. I suspect the beer and conversation would be fantastic, it's only the way the internet is designed that makes most users appear to "hate" other posters.
:salut:
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
312player wrote:
Yes, who's a better catcher the past 15 years?

Buster Posey
Author:  TurdFerguson [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
On fangraphs, I pulled the top 30 WAR seasons individually since 1995.

Piazza - 5 times (1,5,6)
Joe Mauer 5 times (3)
Ivan Rodriguez 4 times (4,7,9)
Buster Posey 3 times (2)
Jorge Posada 3 times (10)

Yadi Molina 2 times (11,23)
Russell Martin 2 times (22,30)
Brian McCann 2 times (26,29)

I checked the next few pages seeing if he had a bunch of years that just missed, and it makes his case look worse. His next years rank 54, 91 and 116.

Pudge and Piazza are already in the HOF. Joe Mauer and Buster Posey have to rank ahead of him with current players. Its hard to say Yadi makes a stronger case than Posada and he has been dropped from the ballet.

#NotMyHOF
Author:  Apologist [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
FavreFan wrote:
312player wrote:
Yes, who's a better catcher the past 15 years?

Buster Posey

Posey plays about 40 games a year at first base, a position that requires much higher skill with the bat to even be considered average.. If you compiled the numbers he only put up as a catcher, they would look quite a bit less impressive. It also speaks to your earlier statement about MVP votes. Even ironman catchers like Yadier can only play 120-130 or so games in the field due to the relative physical toll t takes on one's body. I'd be willing to wager that Posey will not catch 147 games in his age 34 season, which YM did just last year.
Author:  badrogue17 [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
Man it's tough to put Molina in before Maurer and I think Maurer just misses it . Tough call.
Author:  TurdFerguson [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
badrogue17 wrote:
Man it's tough to put Molina in before Maurer and I think Maurer just misses it . Tough call.


I'd forgotten how good Mauer was when he came in. He also came in with the pedigree of 1.1 out of the draft. 1 pick ahead of Mr Prior.
Author:  Apologist [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
TurdFerguson wrote:
newper wrote:
Apologist wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He's not close to a Hall of Famer. Maybe we should let Bill Freehan and Jim Sundberg in too.



Those guys couldn't hit, they weren't the best catchers in their era...Yadi is, he's also got more cy youngs n rings...terrible analogy.



Freehan was a better hitter than Molina. And are you really awarding Cy Youngs to a catcher??? Molina isn't a better offensive player than Pierzynski.

the hardware is silly and often arbitrary, we've already been over that... and it's hard to know how much to attribute that to the catcher. Was 1985 Doc Gooden so good because he had Gary Carter back there? Probably not, but i'm sure it didn't hurt.

here's another thing I looked at... haven't gotten through 2016 box scores yet, however take this into consideration, since it seems like you esteem winning percentage so much for individual pitchers.

2010-2015 STL W-L
With Molina starting: 449-317 (.586)
Without: 94-96 (.495)

That’s a 70 game difference over less than 5 full seasons worth of games. So it seems his true "wins above replacement" value is not insignifigant.


2016 Molina starting 80-63; total 529-380 (.582)
Not starting 6-13; total 100-109 (.478)


This type of stat could also lead to being skewed by him pitching to 1-4 in the rotation and letting the back up catcher handle the fifth starter. I'm sure David Ross put up a freaky good W/L record last year being the personal catcher to Jon Lester

an interesting thing to look up maybe, what are Lester's stats over his career in games started by Ross vs games started with not Ross. Pitchers are fucking weird. If Lester believes he pitches better with Ross, he probably does.
Author:  lipidquadcab [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
Apologist wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
312player wrote:
Yes, who's a better catcher the past 15 years?

Buster Posey

Posey plays about 40 games a year at first base, a position that requires much higher skill with the bat to even be considered average.. If you compiled the numbers he only put up as a catcher, they would look quite a bit less impressive. It also speaks to your earlier statement about MVP votes. Even ironman catchers like Yadier can only play 120-130 or so games in the field due to the relative physical toll t takes on one's body. I'd be willing to wager that Posey will not catch 147 games in his age 34 season, which YM did just last year.

Posey has been better than Molina in the short time he's been in the league, and barring some massive fall off he's already built up a pretty strong case for Cooperstown, but the comment about games played at first base makes me think of the 2012 MVP voting and hearing people (admittedly, mostly Giants fans) say one of the reasons they liked Posey over Molina is because of his versatility due to playing so many games at first base. Like they honestly thought being able to take a guy from arguably the most important defensive position on the field and move him to one of the least was something worth putting on an MVP resume.
Author:  lipidquadcab [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
TurdFerguson wrote:
newper wrote:
Apologist wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He's not close to a Hall of Famer. Maybe we should let Bill Freehan and Jim Sundberg in too.



Those guys couldn't hit, they weren't the best catchers in their era...Yadi is, he's also got more cy youngs n rings...terrible analogy.



Freehan was a better hitter than Molina. And are you really awarding Cy Youngs to a catcher??? Molina isn't a better offensive player than Pierzynski.

the hardware is silly and often arbitrary, we've already been over that... and it's hard to know how much to attribute that to the catcher. Was 1985 Doc Gooden so good because he had Gary Carter back there? Probably not, but i'm sure it didn't hurt.

here's another thing I looked at... haven't gotten through 2016 box scores yet, however take this into consideration, since it seems like you esteem winning percentage so much for individual pitchers.

2010-2015 STL W-L
With Molina starting: 449-317 (.586)
Without: 94-96 (.495)

That’s a 70 game difference over less than 5 full seasons worth of games. So it seems his true "wins above replacement" value is not insignifigant.


2016 Molina starting 80-63; total 529-380 (.582)
Not starting 6-13; total 100-109 (.478)


This type of stat could also lead to being skewed by him pitching to 1-4 in the rotation and letting the back up catcher handle the fifth starter. I'm sure David Ross put up a freaky good W/L record last year being the personal catcher to Jon Lester

I'd be willing to concede that correlation could be possible except for the fact that Molina has had Matheny as a manager for the past five plus years and Mike doesn't believe in giving Yadi a day off unless he's physically about to fall apart.
Author:  rogers park bryan [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
I wonder what his career W-L record is in games hes caught. Probably up there with Jeter, Andruw and Chipper Jones.


Maybe not the HoF but he's in the Hall of "respected by rpb as a winner"
Author:  Apologist [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
don't even wonder. there are sites that keep track of it for you.
Author:  leashyourkids [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
rogers park bryan wrote:
I wonder what his career W-L record is in games hes caught. Probably up there with Jeter, Andruw and Chipper Jones.


Maybe not the HoF but he's in the Hall of "respected by rpb as a winner"


I'm sure they're both equal to him.
Author:  Matches Malone [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
rogers park bryan wrote:
Maybe not the HoF but he's in the Hall of "respected by rpb as a winner"

Do you own a Kevin Millar poster?
Author:  Curious Hair [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
Baseball-reference has his most similar player being Tim McCarver, and no similar players are in the Hall. He's well below on most of the Hall trackers. Gotta lean toward no, but yes on retired number.
Author:  leashyourkids [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
I will acknowledge that he should get a contract to sell jorts.
Author:  newper [ Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
Curious Hair wrote:
Baseball-reference has his most similar player being Tim McCarver, and no similar players are in the Hall. He's well below on most of the Hall trackers. Gotta lean toward no, but yes on retired number.

Yes -- Konerko level.
Author:  newper [ Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
All you have to do is jump over him.
Author:  312player [ Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Yadi a Hall of Famer?
Rodriguez and Piazza were juicers, they should be removed from this conversation. Posey is great, I'd take him over Molina, I'll concede that FF.


Mauer has sucked for four years, when is the last time he's caught? 2011?
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