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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:25 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Could Trevor Williams have pitched better for nine innings? YES
Could Rich Hill have pitched better for nine innings? NO

Williams was not perfect for the game and Hill was.


There are many factually incorrect statements above and a few questionable opinions.


You sound like a Donald Trump twitter post. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:28 am 
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Juiced wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juiced wrote:
HIS job was done after 9 innings of baseball.


:lol: Apparently not.


If the team does their job, he is done. They did not and caused him to have to go out for the 10th. What part of this confuses you?



I'm not confused. You are. If Trevor Williams' team does their job, Rich Hill is on the bench in the sixth or seventh inning. Why are you looking at the game in such a Rich Hill-centric way? If Williams' team provides "run support" then Hill doesn't have a perfect game through eight.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:31 am 
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Juiced wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
A better team performance, YES. Individually NO.
Why do you say that?


Because Humber needed more defense from his team to help him complete a perfect game. Wood struck out 20 batters and needed an average defensive effort(which he did not get) to complete his game. You could argue if Wood had the defense that Humber did that he would have struck out 20 AND thrown a perfect game.
The difference in strikeouts between Hill and the opposing pitchers was 10-7. So, how does those 3 outs that don't rely on the defense make up for giving up a home run?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:44 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
This point seems arbitrary. How you play in overtime/extra innings no longer matters because you could have won in regulation if something else happened besides what actually did happen?

I get what you are saying, but we are debating that the loss is on Hill and it is not. His teammates lost him that game. If they do their job, then he never gives up the HR. I'm not debating how he did in extra innings, because he did not negatively cause the game to go to extra innings. He did everything possible to win except score a run himself. He could have done nothing else to stop it from going into extra innings.


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
He pitched a very good game. So did the pitchers on the other side.

Aren't we told by "math" to judge pitchers primarily on strikeouts, walks, and home runs given up? When you are the only pitcher to give up a home run in a game that you end up losing how is that not on you for letting it happen?


You can say, but he gave up a HR and he caused them to lose in extra innings. Ok, I get it, but in the end his team put him in that position to throw 10 perfect innings of baseball. If he does that, we are calling this, one of the greatest pitching performances ever. To expect that type of performance after a perfect game is unfair to Hill.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:48 am 
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Juiced wrote:
You can say, but he gave up a HR and he caused them to lose in extra innings. Ok, I get it, but in the end his team put him in that position to throw 10 perfect innings of baseball. If he does that, we are calling this, one of the greatest pitching performances ever. To expect that type of performance after a perfect game is unfair to Hill.
That's the problem though. The floodgates are open that many perfect games aren't considered to be some of the greatest games ever pitched so the fact that he did one and then gave up a homer to batter 28 doesn't mean as much.

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Last edited by Brick on Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:49 am 
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Juiced wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
A better team performance, YES. Individually NO.
Why do you say that?


Because Humber needed more defense from his team to help him complete a perfect game. Wood struck out 20 batters and needed an average defensive effort(which he did not get) to complete his game. You could argue if Wood had the defense that Humber did that he would have struck out 20 AND thrown a perfect game.
Tuff to throw a perfect game when you hit a batter.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:07 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amcg7A_-M-g

Lew Burdette lacked run support!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:31 am 
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I wasn't thinking about Rich Hill being a former Cub. Now I see who is discrediting his outing.

"Oh. Makes sense."

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:44 am 
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IMU wrote:
I wasn't thinking about Rich Hill being a former Cub. Now I see who is discrediting his outing.

"Oh. Makes sense."
"SHOULD have been," Former Cub, and Gamescore are you rebuttals. You seem to be serious about this.

Time for you to log off for a while.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:46 am 
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Is this the former Cub that does terrible Harry Caray impressions?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:59 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Is this the former Cub that does terrible Harry Caray impressions?


Is there a former Cub who does good Harry Caray impressions?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
You can say, but he gave up a HR and he caused them to lose in extra innings. Ok, I get it, but in the end his team put him in that position to throw 10 perfect innings of baseball. If he does that, we are calling this, one of the greatest pitching performances ever. To expect that type of performance after a perfect game is unfair to Hill.
That's the problem though. The floodgates are open that many perfect games aren't considered to be some of the greatest games ever pitched so the fact that he did one and then gave up a homer to batter 28 doesn't mean as much.


I can respect your view of the game last night. I just don't agree.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
A better team performance, YES. Individually NO.
Why do you say that?


Because Humber needed more defense from his team to help him complete a perfect game. Wood struck out 20 batters and needed an average defensive effort(which he did not get) to complete his game. You could argue if Wood had the defense that Humber did that he would have struck out 20 AND thrown a perfect game.
Tuff to throw a perfect game when you hit a batter.


I am not debating that his 20 strikeout game was one of the best of all time. It was one of the best CUBS pitched games of all-time. That is as far as I will go with the K20 game.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:20 pm 
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You told me to get lost, that the adults were having a discussion, then claimed that you could argue that Kerry Wood might have had a perfect game with the defense that Philip Humber had.

First, go back and watch the Humber prefecto. I believe all 27 outs are on about a 4 minute YouTube vid. There is one line drive that Alex Rios caught that was hard hit. Everything else was a routine out. Second, Kerry Wood hit a batter in his game. He wasn't perfect no matter what defense or Gamescore you give him.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
:lol: Gamescore and "should have" is your argument. There isn't even a word to describe the stupidity in that.

I'll edit too.
Look, you are using a made up formula as your basis for the Kerry Wood game. If Bill James or Tom Tango simply said "add 20 points for a 9 inning no hitter, and add 25 points for a 9 inning perfect game" Wood's game falls well back.

If game score was score differently Kerry Wood would not have the highest game score... that is true


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
:lol: Gamescore and "should have" is your argument.

There isn't even a word to describe the stupidity in that.

There will always be the ignorant types that want to criticize and devalue what they don't understand.

Yeah, some people do not understand how allowing two base runners is worse than allowing zero. Some people are ignorant to the fact that a perfect game in a World Series is better than any 20 strikeout game could ever be.

Some ignorant people proclaim themselves a "baseball expert who could get a job in MANY MLB front offices" seem to have trouble understanding such simplistic concepts.

Look if it's Bill James vs Frank Costanza in analyzing baseball I know where I'm going

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:29 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
:lol: Gamescore and "should have" is your argument. There isn't even a word to describe the stupidity in that.

I'll edit too.
Look, you are using a made up formula as your basis for the Kerry Wood game. If Bill James or Tom Tango simply said "add 20 points for a 9 inning no hitter, and add 25 points for a 9 inning perfect game" Wood's game falls well back.

If game score was score differently Kerry Wood would not have the highest game score... that is true
They add a point for a strikeout. Why didn't they add 4,or 6, or 10? Why not add 6 points for every strike out after the 10th?

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Last edited by Frank Coztansa on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:29 pm 
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Game score is one of the dumbest sports related concepts ever.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Gamescore is the only way Kerry Wood gets mentioned in Sabr circle jerks.

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[Fields will] be the starting QB on an NFL roster at the start of next season. Book It!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:39 pm 
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I guess your question on game score I would be better addressed at Bill James

Maybe you're right maybe he created it specifically to give Kerry Wood credit


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:40 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Game score is one of the dumbest sports related concepts ever.

Have you researched it enough to have that opinion?

I haven't


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:43 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Game score is one of the dumbest sports related concepts ever.

Have you researched it enough to have that opinion?

I haven't

I don't know what this means. I know what it is, so I guess the answer is yes.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:44 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Game score is one of the dumbest sports related concepts ever.

Have you researched it enough to have that opinion?

I haven't

I don't know what this means. I know what it is, so I guess the answer is yes.

Yeah I know what it is too and the basic tenets of it but I don't know the story of why they came up with it and how they came up with the numbers I guess you could come up with a conclusion but I think if you did some research you can come up with a better more informed conclusion


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:48 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Game score is one of the dumbest sports related concepts ever.

Have you researched it enough to have that opinion?

I haven't

I don't know what this means. I know what it is, so I guess the answer is yes.

Yeah I know what it is too and the basic tenets of it but I don't know the story of why they came up with it and how they came up with the numbers I guess you could come up with a conclusion but I think if you did some research you can come up with a better more informed conclusion

You can always have a better more informed opinion on everything. I'm comfortable with mine on this topic. Anything arguing imperfect is better than perfect is pretty severely flawed.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
You told me to get lost, that the adults were having a discussion, then claimed that you could argue that Kerry Wood might have had a perfect game with the defense that Philip Humber had.

First, go back and watch the Humber prefecto. I believe all 27 outs are on about a 4 minute YouTube vid. There is one line drive that Alex Rios caught that was hard hit. Everything else was a routine out. Second, Kerry Wood hit a batter in his game. He wasn't perfect no matter what defense or Gamescore you give him.


Who had a better defense that year? cubs or sox?

Listen Jr. I am not saying he would have had a perfect game. I am saying, he COULD of had a perfect game. Are you arguing the fact that we can argue? I didn't know that debating what could of happen was wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Please explain how a pitcher COULD have had a perfect game with a hit batsman.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Please explain how a pitcher COULD have had a perfect game with a hit batsman.

If a pitcher retires 27 batsmen (or more, if the game goes into extras) in a row without any of them reaching base via any method, he gets awarded a perfect game.

Always happy to explain baseball to you, Frank Frenchtoast.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:29 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Game score is one of the dumbest sports related concepts ever.

Have you researched it enough to have that opinion?

I haven't

I don't know what this means. I know what it is, so I guess the answer is yes.

Yeah I know what it is too and the basic tenets of it but I don't know the story of why they came up with it and how they came up with the numbers I guess you could come up with a conclusion but I think if you did some research you can come up with a better more informed conclusion

You can always have a better more informed opinion on everything. I'm comfortable with mine on this topic. Anything arguing imperfect is better than perfect is pretty severely flawed.


Sounds like you've really thought this through.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:40 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Please explain how a pitcher COULD have had a perfect game with a hit batsman.

If a pitcher retires 27 batsmen (or more, if the game goes into extras) in a row without any of them reaching base via any method, he gets awarded a perfect game.

Always happy to explain baseball to you, Frank Frenchtoast.
I'm confused. Doesn't a batter who gets hit with the ball get to first base?

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