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 Post subject: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Aaron Judge has been the least clutch player in clutch history, or someting. Not to be outdone, Kris Bryant is putting up the 11th worst clutch season. If you believe in clutch of course. Meanwhile Pujols has 100 RBI with a -1.4 oWAR. For comparison KB has 73 RBI and a 6.0 oWAR. Yay useless stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:30 pm 
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KDdidit wrote:
Aaron Judge has been the least clutch player in clutch history, or someting. Not to be outdone, Kris Bryant is putting up the 11th worst clutch season. If you believe in clutch of course. Meanwhile Pujols has 100 RBI with a -1.4 oWAR. For comparison KB has 73 RBI and a 6.0 oWAR. Yay useless stats.

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They need to tweak the algorithm more if A Rod is only showing up once

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:46 pm 
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And here I thought Bryant's miserable RBI total was due to batting 2nd and having the pitcher and Schwarber in front of him.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:54 am 
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Bernsie wrote:
THERE. IS. NO. SUCH. THING. AS. CLUTCH!

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:06 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Bernsie wrote:
THERE. IS. NO. SUCH. THING. AS. CLUTCH!



He's goddamn right.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:07 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Bernsie wrote:
THERE. IS. NO. SUCH. THING. AS. CLUTCH!


Lower case letters. He says it slowly and quietly.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:12 am 
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I thought about baseball and stats when I was watching the Burns Vietnam doc the other night. I wish I had the exact quote, but there's a guy who is interviewed who talks a lot about stats. He says something like, "When you don't know how to measure something, you measure other things and declare those things important."

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:12 am 
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Russell and Bryant have both been pretty damn clutch down the stretch.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:16 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I thought about baseball and stats when I was watching the Burns Vietnam doc the other night. I wish I had the exact quote, but there's a guy who is interviewed who talks a lot about stats. He says something like, "When you don't know how to measure something, you measure other things and declare those things important."


Robert McNamara? He was the stats guy. Or someone talking about him?

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:26 am 
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GoldenJet wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I thought about baseball and stats when I was watching the Burns Vietnam doc the other night. I wish I had the exact quote, but there's a guy who is interviewed who talks a lot about stats. He says something like, "When you don't know how to measure something, you measure other things and declare those things important."


Robert McNamara? He was the stats guy. Or someone talking about him?


It wasn't McNamara. It was a guy who was kind of mocking the way stats were used in Vietnam. He talked about an apocryphal tale where they stuck all the numbers into a mainframe in the Pentagon basement, manpower, weapons, etc. and asked one question- when will the U.S. win the war? The computer spit back out a card that said something like, "You won in 1965. The enemy just didn't know it."

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:04 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:09 am 
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Kris Bryant does not visibly look like a confident kid at the plate. Has anyone else noticed the tic he's developed?

I don't know why you can't look at some kind of stat that measures what a hitter does with men on base.

Now, a part of that is situational hitting, which is a lost art anyways, but I'd think you could cobble useful numbers from that.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:11 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
Kris Bryant does not visibly look like a confident kid at the plate. Has anyone else noticed the tic he's developed?

The blinking thing? He's always done that. Blinking and grimacing (looks like a smile)



City of Fools wrote:
I don't know why you can't look at some kind of stat that measures what a hitter does with men on base.

Now, a part of that is situational hitting, which is a lost art anyways, but I'd think you could cobble useful numbers from that.

You can look at a lot of stats for that. Just know the context and that RBI is largely contingent on other players.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:30 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
Kris Bryant does not visibly look like a confident kid at the plate. Has anyone else noticed the tic he's developed?

The blinking thing? He's always done that. Blinking and grimacing (looks like a smile)



City of Fools wrote:
I don't know why you can't look at some kind of stat that measures what a hitter does with men on base.

Now, a part of that is situational hitting, which is a lost art anyways, but I'd think you could cobble useful numbers from that.

You can look at a lot of stats for that. Just know the context and that RBI is largely contingent on other players.


I'm not bringing up RBI's. That's a fatally flawed statistic. I'm talking about stats with men on base and 1 out, 2 out, late in game vs early in game, pitching lefty versus righty et al. I guarantee you this...there are GM's armed with these stats. Just like in any other sport, there are guys with lower blood pressure in high pressure situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:31 am 
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It's still funny that the baseball math guys decried clutch as something that didn't exist until they could come up with a way to create math for it and profit and now it does exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
Kris Bryant does not visibly look like a confident kid at the plate. Has anyone else noticed the tic he's developed?

The blinking thing? He's always done that. Blinking and grimacing (looks like a smile)



City of Fools wrote:
I don't know why you can't look at some kind of stat that measures what a hitter does with men on base.

Now, a part of that is situational hitting, which is a lost art anyways, but I'd think you could cobble useful numbers from that.

You can look at a lot of stats for that. Just know the context and that RBI is largely contingent on other players.


I'm not bringing up RBI's. That's a fatally flawed statistic. I'm talking about stats with men on base and 1 out, 2 out, late in game vs early in game, pitching lefty versus righty et al. I guarantee you this...there are GM's armed with these stats. Just like in any other sport, there are guys with lower blood pressure in high pressure situations.

Right. Anyone who disagrees with that is nuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:57 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:00 am 
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Clutch time, rank who you want up in a situation where you need a base hit of the regular Cubs?


Conteras
Zobrist
Baez
Russell
Schwarber
Bryant
Rizzo


If you just need a non out flip the list upside down

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:55 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Clutch time, rank who you want up in a situation where you need a base hit of the regular Cubs?


Conteras
Zobrist
Baez
Russell
Schwarber
Bryant
Rizzo


If you just need a non out flip the list upside down


The idea that a batter's job is to "not make out" is a very new one, and frankly, a pretty low bar for the best hitters. If you're not scoring a run and not driving one in, you really aren't doing much.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:56 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Clutch time, rank who you want up in a situation where you need a base hit of the regular Cubs?


Conteras
Zobrist
Baez
Russell
Schwarber
Bryant
Rizzo


If you just need a non out flip the list upside down


The idea that a batter's job is to "not make out" is a very new one, and frankly, a pretty low bar for the best hitters. If you're not scoring a run and not driving one in, you really aren't doing much.

Joey Votto strongly disagrees with you

There are certainly situations where you just need to get on base by any means necessary though.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:02 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Clutch time, rank who you want up in a situation where you need a base hit of the regular Cubs?


Conteras
Zobrist
Baez
Russell
Schwarber
Bryant
Rizzo


If you just need a non out flip the list upside down


The idea that a batter's job is to "not make out" is a very new one, and frankly, a pretty low bar for the best hitters. If you're not scoring a run and not driving one in, you really aren't doing much.

Joey Votto strongly disagrees with you

There are certainly situations where you just need to get on base by any means necessary though.


Joey Votto scores and drives in plenty. But I would say there are times he looks to walk when a guy who makes the money he does should be trying to lash the ball rather than sauntering to first and waiting for Adam Duvall to get the job done.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:06 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Clutch time, rank who you want up in a situation where you need a base hit of the regular Cubs?


Conteras
Zobrist
Baez
Russell
Schwarber
Bryant
Rizzo


If you just need a non out flip the list upside down


The idea that a batter's job is to "not make out" is a very new one, and frankly, a pretty low bar for the best hitters. If you're not scoring a run and not driving one in, you really aren't doing much.

Joey Votto strongly disagrees with you

There are certainly situations where you just need to get on base by any means necessary though.


Joey Votto scores and drives in plenty. But I would say there are times he looks to walk when a guy who makes the money he does should be trying to lash the ball rather than sauntering to first and waiting for Adam Duvall to get the job done.

I'm not making some larger point. Joey Votto has literally been quoted as saying "my job is to not make an out"

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:07 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Clutch time, rank who you want up in a situation where you need a base hit of the regular Cubs?


Conteras
Zobrist
Baez
Russell
Schwarber
Bryant
Rizzo


If you just need a non out flip the list upside down


The idea that a batter's job is to "not make out" is a very new one, and frankly, a pretty low bar for the best hitters. If you're not scoring a run and not driving one in, you really aren't doing much.

Joey Votto strongly disagrees with you

There are certainly situations where you just need to get on base by any means necessary though.


Joey Votto scores and drives in plenty. But I would say there are times he looks to walk when a guy who makes the money he does should be trying to lash the ball rather than sauntering to first and waiting for Adam Duvall to get the job done.

I'm not making some larger point. Joey Votto has literally been quoted as saying "my job is to not make an out"


I know. Which is why I don't want him on my team for the money he makes.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:52 am 
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Joey Votto...not good enough! Cris Carter, you're JORR's new favorite player!

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:02 am 
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The thing for me is that Bryant and Rizzo (and many others such as Votto) have become boring hitters. Good hitters, yes. But boring. Taking pitches an inch off the plate with two strikes. I can't count how many times Bryant has worked an 0-2 count to full or even a walk. Statistically what they are doing may be "right," but I want to see them swing.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:24 am 
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IMU wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Joey Votto...not good enough! Cris Carter, you're JORR's new favorite player!


Has Votto ever played on a winning team?

I just looked it up. He's been on 3 winners in 11 years. I didn't do the math, but a rough estimate is that his teams average about 75 wins a season. Now, obviously there's a lot more to all the losing than just him. I just don't think you want him as the best player on your team.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:35 am 
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Kids nowadays don't even know what a clutch is.


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 Post subject: Re: Clutch/No Clutch!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:46 am 
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Clutch is just not being a choker and having a cluster of successes in memorable moments.

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