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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:58 pm 
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DannyB wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
And Dwight Evans better start thinking about hotel reservations in upstate NY pretty soon as well.


Heard a good Dewey Evans story today from Artie Lange on Sternthology circa 2009 (the Baba Booey pitch). He was talking about Yankees / Red Sox fans. Evans finished his career (he said Cleve but it was actually Balt) and during that last season they were visiting Yankee stadium. Before the game Balt was taking BP and Evans was standing around the cage with everyone else. This New Yorker apparently made his way down to the first row and starts screaming repeatedly, Hey Evans! Hey Evans! Your son is the Elephant Boy! Turns our Evans' son has NS disease--ie, something similar to Rocky Dennis disease. Evans rightly goes apeshit and starts after the guy but his teammates are holding him back. While he's held back the guy's yelling Fuck You, you won't do shit cuz I'll sue you. That sort of thing. I had no idea about Evans' kid--that is truly sad. In any case--the guy yelling from the stands? None other than.... Donald Trump.


I hate the guy but even I hope that isn't true. But if it is, nothing's too bad for the prick.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:17 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
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Schilling , Mussina are shoo-in’s now.


Let's hope not

If you put Morris in, they get in too.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but I don’t believe in using the guys who squeak in as a deciding factor. If you do then it effectively guarantees that the HOF will be eventually diluted to the point that the Mark Graces of the world get in.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Schilling , Mussina are shoo-in’s now.


Let's hope not

If you put Morris in, they get in too.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but I don’t believe in using the guys who squeak in as a deciding factor. If you do then it effectively guarantees that the HOF will be eventually diluted to the point that the Mark Graces of the world get in.



Once they put in Rizzuto, Mazerowski and Ozzie Smith they lost all credibility..it really doesn't matter anymore.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:14 pm 
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312player wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Schilling , Mussina are shoo-in’s now.


Let's hope not

If you put Morris in, they get in too.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but I don’t believe in using the guys who squeak in as a deciding factor. If you do then it effectively guarantees that the HOF will be eventually diluted to the point that the Mark Graces of the world get in.



Once they put in Rizzuto, Mazerowski and Ozzie Smith they lost all credibility..it really doesn't matter anymore.

That’s what I mean. Just because a mistake was made doesn’t mean that is now the standard. I hope Reinsdorf doesn’t retire Ventura’s number because he did that with Baines.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:24 am 
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312player wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Schilling , Mussina are shoo-in’s now.


Let's hope not

If you put Morris in, they get in too.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but I don’t believe in using the guys who squeak in as a deciding factor. If you do then it effectively guarantees that the HOF will be eventually diluted to the point that the Mark Graces of the world get in.



Once they put in Rizzuto, Mazerowski and Ozzie Smith they lost all credibility..it really doesn't matter anymore.

Having seen the 2017 Chicago White Sox, I will say that infield defense is pretty important.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:14 am 
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tommy wrote:
312player wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Schilling , Mussina are shoo-in’s now.


Let's hope not

If you put Morris in, they get in too.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not but I don’t believe in using the guys who squeak in as a deciding factor. If you do then it effectively guarantees that the HOF will be eventually diluted to the point that the Mark Graces of the world get in.



Once they put in Rizzuto, Mazerowski and Ozzie Smith they lost all credibility..it really doesn't matter anymore.

Having seen the 2017 Chicago White Sox, I will say that infield defense is pretty important.



No doubt Defense is important, if you want to be in the HOF you should have to play outstanding D and have an outstanding bat.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:34 am 
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312player wrote:
No doubt Defense is important, if you want to be in the HOF you should have to play outstanding D and have an outstanding bat.


Mazeroski and Rizzuto don't belong in the Hall of Fame. Defense matters for catchers, shortstops, and centerfielders. Ozzie Smith doesn't belong categorized with the two aforementioned guys. He was a super elite defender at the most important position on the field. Aparicio would be similar. Those guys are deserving Hall of Famers based mainly upon their defense.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:33 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
No doubt Defense is important, if you want to be in the HOF you should have to play outstanding D and have an outstanding bat.


Mazeroski and Rizzuto don't belong in the Hall of Fame. Defense matters for catchers, shortstops, and centerfielders. Ozzie Smith doesn't belong categorized with the two aforementioned guys. He was a super elite defender at the most important position on the field. Aparicio would be similar. Those guys are deserving Hall of Famers based mainly upon their defense.

Rizzuto was a shortstop. Mazeroski has been rated by some as the best defensive second baseman ever and had one of the biggest hits in the history of the game. I totally understand your points, though, but I am fine with Mazeroski being inducted. Rizzuto seemed like a solid damn player, but....probably more of a HoFer as an announcer. Was in like every World Series, but...

Maybe you guys just don't like second wave immigrants. Funny how racism rears its ugly head even here.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:44 am 
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tommy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
No doubt Defense is important, if you want to be in the HOF you should have to play outstanding D and have an outstanding bat.


Mazeroski and Rizzuto don't belong in the Hall of Fame. Defense matters for catchers, shortstops, and centerfielders. Ozzie Smith doesn't belong categorized with the two aforementioned guys. He was a super elite defender at the most important position on the field. Aparicio would be similar. Those guys are deserving Hall of Famers based mainly upon their defense.

Rizzuto was a shortstop. Mazeroski has been rated by some as the best defensive second baseman ever and had one of the biggest hits in the history of the game. I totally understand your points, though, but I am fine with Mazeroski being inducted. Rizzuto seemed like a solid damn player, but....probably more of a HoFer as an announcer. Was in like every World Series, but...

Maybe you guys just don't like second wave immigrants. Funny how racism rears its ugly head even here.


:lol:

I know Rizzuto was a shortstop but nowhere near the level of guys like Aparicio and Smith and Vizquel, who may not even get in. Let's face it. He's in because he played short for great Yankee teams.

I understand the homer in 1960 helped Maz's case. I don't have a problem with that. Probably the second most famous homer ever, certainly at the time. But I couldn't really say Maz was much better than Frank Bolling, a guy most people have never heard of.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:55 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
DannyB wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
And Dwight Evans better start thinking about hotel reservations in upstate NY pretty soon as well.


Heard a good Dewey Evans story today from Artie Lange on Sternthology circa 2009 (the Baba Booey pitch). He was talking about Yankees / Red Sox fans. Evans finished his career (he said Cleve but it was actually Balt) and during that last season they were visiting Yankee stadium. Before the game Balt was taking BP and Evans was standing around the cage with everyone else. This New Yorker apparently made his way down to the first row and starts screaming repeatedly, Hey Evans! Hey Evans! Your son is the Elephant Boy! Turns our Evans' son has NS disease--ie, something similar to Rocky Dennis disease. Evans rightly goes apeshit and starts after the guy but his teammates are holding him back. While he's held back the guy's yelling Fuck You, you won't do shit cuz I'll sue you. That sort of thing. I had no idea about Evans' kid--that is truly sad. In any case--the guy yelling from the stands? None other than.... Donald Trump.


I hate the guy but even I hope that isn't true. But if it is, nothing's too bad for the prick.


Wow, why do you dislike Dwight Evans so much?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:41 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
DannyB wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
And Dwight Evans better start thinking about hotel reservations in upstate NY pretty soon as well.


Heard a good Dewey Evans story today from Artie Lange on Sternthology circa 2009 (the Baba Booey pitch). He was talking about Yankees / Red Sox fans. Evans finished his career (he said Cleve but it was actually Balt) and during that last season they were visiting Yankee stadium. Before the game Balt was taking BP and Evans was standing around the cage with everyone else. This New Yorker apparently made his way down to the first row and starts screaming repeatedly, Hey Evans! Hey Evans! Your son is the Elephant Boy! Turns our Evans' son has NS disease--ie, something similar to Rocky Dennis disease. Evans rightly goes apeshit and starts after the guy but his teammates are holding him back. While he's held back the guy's yelling Fuck You, you won't do shit cuz I'll sue you. That sort of thing. I had no idea about Evans' kid--that is truly sad. In any case--the guy yelling from the stands? None other than.... Donald Trump.


I hate the guy but even I hope that isn't true. But if it is, nothing's too bad for the prick.


Wow, why do you dislike Dwight Evans so much?


He wears the poor :lol: , misunderstood, but noble rot of the typical Boston fan too well. :D

Dewey Evans embodies what I cannot stomach in most Boston/numbers fans. His career was solid, but to fit their fairy tale all kinds of metrics were dreamed up to promote his(for them) glorious status. He was never anything more than Bosox Mattingly or Billy Williams with less power. His glove was great, but nowhere near the growing mythological greatness that it is today.

But ultimately it's nice to see one of their guys take the occasional swatting.

Does anyone else have confirmation of the Trump story though?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:26 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
tommy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
No doubt Defense is important, if you want to be in the HOF you should have to play outstanding D and have an outstanding bat.


Mazeroski and Rizzuto don't belong in the Hall of Fame. Defense matters for catchers, shortstops, and centerfielders. Ozzie Smith doesn't belong categorized with the two aforementioned guys. He was a super elite defender at the most important position on the field. Aparicio would be similar. Those guys are deserving Hall of Famers based mainly upon their defense.

Rizzuto was a shortstop. Mazeroski has been rated by some as the best defensive second baseman ever and had one of the biggest hits in the history of the game. I totally understand your points, though, but I am fine with Mazeroski being inducted. Rizzuto seemed like a solid damn player, but....probably more of a HoFer as an announcer. Was in like every World Series, but...

Maybe you guys just don't like second wave immigrants. Funny how racism rears its ugly head even here.


:lol:

I know Rizzuto was a shortstop but nowhere near the level of guys like Aparicio and Smith and Vizquel, who may not even get in. Let's face it. He's in because he played short for great Yankee teams.

I understand the homer in 1960 helped Maz's case. I don't have a problem with that. Probably the second most famous homer ever, certainly at the time. But I couldn't really say Maz was much better than Frank Bolling, a guy most people have never heard of.

Rizzuto definitely got that Yankee bump. His peers always say that he was one of the greats, but then again, peers often exaggerate in retrospect.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:26 am 
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tommy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
tommy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
No doubt Defense is important, if you want to be in the HOF you should have to play outstanding D and have an outstanding bat.


Mazeroski and Rizzuto don't belong in the Hall of Fame. Defense matters for catchers, shortstops, and centerfielders. Ozzie Smith doesn't belong categorized with the two aforementioned guys. He was a super elite defender at the most important position on the field. Aparicio would be similar. Those guys are deserving Hall of Famers based mainly upon their defense.

Rizzuto was a shortstop. Mazeroski has been rated by some as the best defensive second baseman ever and had one of the biggest hits in the history of the game. I totally understand your points, though, but I am fine with Mazeroski being inducted. Rizzuto seemed like a solid damn player, but....probably more of a HoFer as an announcer. Was in like every World Series, but...

Maybe you guys just don't like second wave immigrants. Funny how racism rears its ugly head even here.


:lol:

I know Rizzuto was a shortstop but nowhere near the level of guys like Aparicio and Smith and Vizquel, who may not even get in. Let's face it. He's in because he played short for great Yankee teams.

I understand the homer in 1960 helped Maz's case. I don't have a problem with that. Probably the second most famous homer ever, certainly at the time. But I couldn't really say Maz was much better than Frank Bolling, a guy most people have never heard of.

Rizzuto definitely got that Yankee bump. His peers oten say that he was one of the greats, but then again, peers often exaggerate in retrospect.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:32 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:

Dewey Evans embodies what I cannot stomach in most Boston/numbers fans. His career was solid, but to fit their fairy tale all kinds of metrics were dreamed up to promote his(for them) glorious status. He was never anything more than Bosox Mattingly or Billy Williams with less power. His glove was great, but nowhere near the growing mythological greatness that it is today.

Solid career, no doubt. But had he played at Comiskey, he would have had even less power--a 10 HR/30 doubles/.266 player. Well....maybe not....Evans is pretty old.....perhaps he could have used that Sox Sod to chop a few balls over the third baseman's head early in his career.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:49 pm 
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tommy wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:

Dewey Evans embodies what I cannot stomach in most Boston/numbers fans. His career was solid, but to fit their fairy tale all kinds of metrics were dreamed up to promote his(for them) glorious status. He was never anything more than Bosox Mattingly or Billy Williams with less power. His glove was great, but nowhere near the growing mythological greatness that it is today.

Solid career, no doubt. But had he played at Comiskey, he would have had even less power--a 10 HR/30 doubles/.266 player. Well....maybe not....Evans is pretty old.....perhaps he could have used that Sox Sod to chop a few balls over the third baseman's head early in his career.


To hear it told now, he was the greatest right fielder in history maybe aside from Clemente or some other ancient. Always took the best route to the ball in apparently the world's impossibly toughest right field in baseball history. And that his arm is still underrated, even in his late 60's.

Oh, and did I forget to mention just how clutch a hitter they say now he really was?

I hate Boston fans.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:02 pm 
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This morning they said Thome is a first ballot lock, yet I always thought he would have to wait along with Bonds and Clemens (maybe not as long because he's not a dick). Was he considered clean(er)?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
This morning they said Thome is a first ballot lock, yet I always thought he would have to wait along with Bonds and Clemens (maybe not as long because he's not a dick). Was he considered clean(er)?

He's never been linked with them, as far as I know. It's too bad that the other guys stole the spotlight--the guy hit 600 HRs. Growing up, only three guys hit more than him. (I think he is 7th all-time now.) 600 homers.....man. But he's considered clean.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:17 pm 
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I hate the Cardinals, but come on, Ozzie Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
I hate the Cardinals, but come on, Ozzie Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame.

No.

If Ozzie is in, you have to put Omar Vizquel in (better defensively and better offensive numbers), and we know he is not getting in.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
tommy wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:

Dewey Evans embodies what I cannot stomach in most Boston/numbers fans. His career was solid, but to fit their fairy tale all kinds of metrics were dreamed up to promote his(for them) glorious status. He was never anything more than Bosox Mattingly or Billy Williams with less power. His glove was great, but nowhere near the growing mythological greatness that it is today.

Solid career, no doubt. But had he played at Comiskey, he would have had even less power--a 10 HR/30 doubles/.266 player. Well....maybe not....Evans is pretty old.....perhaps he could have used that Sox Sod to chop a few balls over the third baseman's head early in his career.


To hear it told now, he was the greatest right fielder in history maybe aside from Clemente or some other ancient. Always took the best route to the ball in apparently the world's impossibly toughest right field in baseball history. And that his arm is still underrated, even in his late 60's.

Oh, and did I forget to mention just how clutch a hitter they say now he really was?

I hate Boston fans.


Defense on the outfield corners is negligible. Sure, Evans was great defensively, but not better than Dave Parker. Maybe not better than Baines early in his career before his knees went.

Any Hall of Fame that has Dewey Evans in it and not Dick Allen or Minnie Minoso is just a fucking farce.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
I hate the Cardinals, but come on, Ozzie Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame.

No.

If Ozzie is in, you have to put Omar Vizquel in (better defensively and better offensive numbers), and we know he is not getting in.

Not better defensively.

Ozzie is borderline. Omar is just below.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:06 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
I hate the Cardinals, but come on, Ozzie Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame.

No.

If Ozzie is in, you have to put Omar Vizquel in (better defensively and better offensive numbers), and we know he is not getting in.

Not better defensively.

Ozzie is borderline. Omar is just below.



If you put ANY stock in advanced defensive metrics there is no defensive player in history close to Ozzie Smith. Aparicio and Vizquel were great but not quite on Smith's level.

The thing I don't like is the attempts to judge past eras through today's lens. Guys that walked a lot are SABR darlings. Darrell Porter is suddenly greater than Carlton Fisk. If you would have suggested such when they actually played they would have locked you up. Luis Aparicio was a dynamic offensive player largely due to his speed and base stealing, but because it's silly to get caught stealing as much as he did in a run environment like we had in the steroid era, he has been diminished by the people that write about this stuff.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:12 pm 
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what the hell is going on in this thread? Questioning if Ozzie Smith should be in the HOF? :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Thome is definitely a HOFer. Being a first-ballot HOFer just doesn't seem to fit, though. Either way, he should be in.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:07 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
what the hell is going on in this thread? Questioning if Ozzie Smith should be in the HOF? :lol:

Not really surprising. He's definitely in the top 10 HoFers who get questioned.


Who was a better baseball player, John Olerud or Vizquel?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:50 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
what the hell is going on in this thread? Questioning if Ozzie Smith should be in the HOF? :lol:

Not really surprising. He's definitely in the top 10 HoFers who get questioned.


Who was a better baseball player, John Olerud or Vizquel?

Hard to compare.....but Vizquel.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:07 pm 
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tommy wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
what the hell is going on in this thread? Questioning if Ozzie Smith should be in the HOF? :lol:

Not really surprising. He's definitely in the top 10 HoFers who get questioned.


Who was a better baseball player, John Olerud or Vizquel?

Hard to compare.....but Vizquel.

Just something I thought of watching a HoF roundtable last night. Olerud, clearly not a Hall of Famer, but in their prime who would you be more excited about if your team got him?

Olerud Id think.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:38 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
tommy wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
what the hell is going on in this thread? Questioning if Ozzie Smith should be in the HOF? :lol:

Not really surprising. He's definitely in the top 10 HoFers who get questioned.


Who was a better baseball player, John Olerud or Vizquel?

Hard to compare.....but Vizquel.

Just something I thought of watching a HoF roundtable last night. Olerud, clearly not a Hall of Famer, but in their prime who would you be more excited about if your team got him?

Olerud Id think.

I'd take Vizquel and just never have to worry about defense. I assume defense is less important at first, and you can get Olerud's offensive numbers anywhere (besides the occasional whoa! season).


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:44 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
tommy wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
what the hell is going on in this thread? Questioning if Ozzie Smith should be in the HOF? :lol:

Not really surprising. He's definitely in the top 10 HoFers who get questioned.


Who was a better baseball player, John Olerud or Vizquel?

Hard to compare.....but Vizquel.

Just something I thought of watching a HoF roundtable last night. Olerud, clearly not a Hall of Famer, but in their prime who would you be more excited about if your team got him?

Olerud Id think.


Olerud and excitement aren't in the same area code. And what Tommy said about not having to think about middle infield defense.

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