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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:35 am 
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Cool, though not sure how accurate numbers are from the period.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:37 am 
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Looking forward to WFR's take on this.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:41 am 
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What's your guess? I've heard it was akin to Triple A with stars and superstars sprinkled in. Smaller talent pool and some pretty bad players, fields, and stadiums. Personally, I have no clue, but would love to read about this.

Would be in my Top 100 things to see if I could time travel, though.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:45 am 
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It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:45 am 
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another plug for the Negro league museum. If you have not been to KC to see it you need to get there. Great stuff for any baseball fan

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:52 am 
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RFDC wrote:
another plug for the Negro league museum. If you have not been to KC to see it you need to get there. Great stuff for any baseball fan


Definitely want to make it out there.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:54 am 
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I always enjoy stories of the legend of Josh Gibson.

Hopefully, I can make it out to KC someday.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:56 am 
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GoldenJet wrote:
Looking forward to WFR's take on this.


It's ridiculous pandering, but you already knew that. Now back to your d virtue signaling about white guilt and what a great ally you are to minorities from your Lake Forest mansion.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:56 am 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:59 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.


Those are completely different circumstances, and it makes zero sense to compare them. Let's just add the stats from the Federalist League, and raise the banner for the Chicago Whales while we are at it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:59 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.

Probably should include stats from any professional organization.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:03 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.

Probably should include stats from any professional organization.


We are going to have to take down the Jordan statue and burn the banners. The Harlem Globetrotters are now 94 time consecutive champions.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:04 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.

Probably should include stats from any professional organization.


We are going to have to take down the Jordan statue and burn the banners. The Harlem Globetrotters are now 94 time consecutive champions.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:06 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.

Probably should include stats from any professional organization.


We are going to have to take down the Jordan statue and burn the banners. The Harlem Globetrotters are now 94 time consecutive champions.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:12 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
GoldenJet wrote:
Looking forward to WFR's take on this.


It's ridiculous pandering, but you already knew that. Now back to your d virtue signaling about white guilt and what a great ally you are to minorities from your Lake Forest mansion.


:D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:16 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
the stats from the Federalist League

Meghan McCain's Value Over Replacement Beard is one for the record books

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:17 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.

Probably should include stats from any professional organization.


We are going to have to take down the Jordan statue and burn the banners. The Harlem Globetrotters are now 94 time consecutive champions.

Has someone hacked WFR's account? He's made like 3 jokes in the past couple days. This can't be him.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:18 pm 
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I saw a story on I think Real Sports about a guy who has spent years tabulating box scores that were published in newspapers of that time. The numbers weren't made up he has.

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/histo ... &sort=HR_a

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:22 pm 
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conns7901 wrote:
I saw a story on I think Real Sports about a guy who has spent years tabulating box scores that were published in newspapers of that time. The numbers weren't made up he has.

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/histo ... &sort=HR_a


Were these the stats Julie cited when attempting to check out a Josh Gibson book from her local library?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:25 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
conns7901 wrote:
I saw a story on I think Real Sports about a guy who has spent years tabulating box scores that were published in newspapers of that time. The numbers weren't made up he has.

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/histo ... &sort=HR_a


Were these the stats Julie cited when attempting to check out a Josh Gibson book from her local library?


Josh only has 238 HR credited to him so probably not.

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conns7901 wrote:
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:37 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.

Probably should include stats from any professional organization.


We are going to have to take down the Jordan statue and burn the banners. The Harlem Globetrotters are now 94 time consecutive champions.

Has someone hacked WFR's account? He's made like 3 jokes in the past couple days. This can't be him.

:lol: I noticed that too. I like this version more

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:06 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.


Those are completely different circumstances, and it makes zero sense to compare them. Let's just add the stats from the Federalist League, and raise the banner for the Chicago Whales while we are at it.


I guess I kind of fall somewhere between you and Frank regarding the numbers. If this had happened in 1980 I would have found it outrageous. 60 and 714 were sacred numbers that everyone knew. The names Tracy Stallard and Al Downing mean something to me. There was a time when I could tell you every guy who ever hit 50 in a season off the top of my head and it wasn't many. The steroid, juiced ball, small ballpark, whatever you want to attribute the offensive explosion to era changed everything. I don't even know the all-time home run record. I know Bonds holds it, but I couldn't tell you the number. The single season record, I'm pretty sure it's 73, but I wouldn't swear to it without looking it up. And I'm a pretty big fan. Even the average guy who didn't really care about the game knew 714. So did his wife.

Still, of course you're correct that it's pandering and it's pretty ridiculous to install the Bunyanesque feats of these guys, as great as they may have been, as official records. Are we going to replace Usain Bolt with Cool Papa Bell based on legend and sketchy record keeping too? Even if the record keeping were complete and relatively sound, which it isn't, there were too many guys pitching to Gibson and Charleston that couldn't have sniffed the big leagues.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:10 pm 
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GoldenJet wrote:
Looking forward to WFR's take on this.

All the negro league stats should be reduced by 3/5ths


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:14 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.


Those are completely different circumstances, and it makes zero sense to compare them. Let's just add the stats from the Federalist League, and raise the banner for the Chicago Whales while we are at it.


I guess I kind of fall somewhere between you and Frank regarding the numbers. If this had happened in 1980 I would have found it outrageous. 60 and 714 were sacred numbers that everyone knew. The names Tracy Stallard and Al Downing mean something to me. There was a time when I could tell you every guy who ever hit 50 in a season off the top of my head and it wasn't many. The steroid, juiced ball, small ballpark, whatever you want to attribute the offensive explosion to era changed everything. I don't even know the all-time home run record. I know Bonds holds it, but I couldn't tell you the number. The single season record, I'm pretty sure it's 73, but I wouldn't swear to it without looking it up. And I'm a pretty big fan. Even the average guy who didn't really care about the game knew 714. So did his wife.

Still, of course you're correct that it's pandering and it's pretty ridiculous to install the Bunyanesque feats of these guys, as great as they may have been, as official records. Are we going to replace Usain Bolt with Cool Papa Bell based on legend and sketchy record keeping too? Even if the record keeping were complete and relatively sound, which it isn't, there were too many guys pitching to Gibson and Charleston that couldn't have sniffed the big leagues.


Are we really that sure about that? There are also a number of players who never would have been in MLB if baseball had always been integrated. But either way, the numbers don't really matter anymore after the steroid/ juiced ball era. If it is verifiable through printed box scores I see no real issue with that. If were just going to let people like Julie make things up that is something different.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:14 pm 
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If they can merge WCW and WWF then why not this?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:20 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.


Those are completely different circumstances, and it makes zero sense to compare them. Let's just add the stats from the Federalist League, and raise the banner for the Chicago Whales while we are at it.


I guess I kind of fall somewhere between you and Frank regarding the numbers. If this had happened in 1980 I would have found it outrageous. 60 and 714 were sacred numbers that everyone knew. The names Tracy Stallard and Al Downing mean something to me. There was a time when I could tell you every guy who ever hit 50 in a season off the top of my head and it wasn't many. The steroid, juiced ball, small ballpark, whatever you want to attribute the offensive explosion to era changed everything. I don't even know the all-time home run record. I know Bonds holds it, but I couldn't tell you the number. The single season record, I'm pretty sure it's 73, but I wouldn't swear to it without looking it up. And I'm a pretty big fan. Even the average guy who didn't really care about the game knew 714. So did his wife.

Still, of course you're correct that it's pandering and it's pretty ridiculous to install the Bunyanesque feats of these guys, as great as they may have been, as official records. Are we going to replace Usain Bolt with Cool Papa Bell based on legend and sketchy record keeping too? Even if the record keeping were complete and relatively sound, which it isn't, there were too many guys pitching to Gibson and Charleston that couldn't have sniffed the big leagues.


It's certainly true that stats have taken a huge hit, but think of the irony of a guy who never played Major League baseball taking the home run crown from Hank Aaron and the unofficial/official champion Barry Bonds. How is that for social justice?

Also, this is ignoring what the Negro Leagues were. They were not the Majors, but with black guys. It was closer to the circus of that era. They would go from town to town and put on a show. And the gate was their salary so that was more important than the competition.

Baseball has gone to great lengths to honor these guys. Acting like they played MLB is just silly overreach that doesn't improve anyone's life. In fact it distorts and white washes history. They are in the record books. It's like they were never banned.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:23 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.


Those are completely different circumstances, and it makes zero sense to compare them. Let's just add the stats from the Federalist League, and raise the banner for the Chicago Whales while we are at it.


I guess I kind of fall somewhere between you and Frank regarding the numbers. If this had happened in 1980 I would have found it outrageous. 60 and 714 were sacred numbers that everyone knew. The names Tracy Stallard and Al Downing mean something to me. There was a time when I could tell you every guy who ever hit 50 in a season off the top of my head and it wasn't many. The steroid, juiced ball, small ballpark, whatever you want to attribute the offensive explosion to era changed everything. I don't even know the all-time home run record. I know Bonds holds it, but I couldn't tell you the number. The single season record, I'm pretty sure it's 73, but I wouldn't swear to it without looking it up. And I'm a pretty big fan. Even the average guy who didn't really care about the game knew 714. So did his wife.

Still, of course you're correct that it's pandering and it's pretty ridiculous to install the Bunyanesque feats of these guys, as great as they may have been, as official records. Are we going to replace Usain Bolt with Cool Papa Bell based on legend and sketchy record keeping too? Even if the record keeping were complete and relatively sound, which it isn't, there were too many guys pitching to Gibson and Charleston that couldn't have sniffed the big leagues.


All I know is that there’s no way Mickey Mantle was faster than Cool Papa Bell.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:23 pm 
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conns7901 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
It'll be interesting for sure to see how the stats are incorporated into history.

I don't see how you can do anything other than add them all whatever they may be, or don't add any. If the steroid era stats are going to stay in and count, then the same should happen for the Negro Leagues in my opinion.


Those are completely different circumstances, and it makes zero sense to compare them. Let's just add the stats from the Federalist League, and raise the banner for the Chicago Whales while we are at it.


I guess I kind of fall somewhere between you and Frank regarding the numbers. If this had happened in 1980 I would have found it outrageous. 60 and 714 were sacred numbers that everyone knew. The names Tracy Stallard and Al Downing mean something to me. There was a time when I could tell you every guy who ever hit 50 in a season off the top of my head and it wasn't many. The steroid, juiced ball, small ballpark, whatever you want to attribute the offensive explosion to era changed everything. I don't even know the all-time home run record. I know Bonds holds it, but I couldn't tell you the number. The single season record, I'm pretty sure it's 73, but I wouldn't swear to it without looking it up. And I'm a pretty big fan. Even the average guy who didn't really care about the game knew 714. So did his wife.

Still, of course you're correct that it's pandering and it's pretty ridiculous to install the Bunyanesque feats of these guys, as great as they may have been, as official records. Are we going to replace Usain Bolt with Cool Papa Bell based on legend and sketchy record keeping too? Even if the record keeping were complete and relatively sound, which it isn't, there were too many guys pitching to Gibson and Charleston that couldn't have sniffed the big leagues.


Are we really that sure about that? There are also a number of players who never would have been in MLB if baseball had always been integrated. But either way, the numbers don't really matter anymore after the steroid/ juiced ball era. If it is verifiable through printed box scores I see no real issue with that. If were just going to let people like Julie make things up that is something different.



Sure, it's not like Ruth hit all 714 off Walter Johnson and Stan Coveleski. But baseball historians know that the quality wasn't always there and that a lot of the leagues operated on a shoestring with teams moving and leagues folding.

It seems like you and I are basically on the same page though.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:26 pm 
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JOrr I do agree with your overall sentiment, I just don't see how baseball can say we will put some stats in but keep some stats out. It just doesn't work like that, or at least it shouldn't. It has to be all or nothing I would think.


Or maybe they will put 3/5 of Josh Gibson's homers into the record books.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:31 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
JOrr I do agree with your overall sentiment, I just don't see how baseball can say we will put some stats in but keep some stats out. It just doesn't work like that, or at least it shouldn't. It has to be all or nothing I would think.


Or maybe they will put 3/5 of Josh Gibson's homers into the record books.


But what are the agreed upon Josh Gibson stats? And why stop with the Negro Leagues? Should we honor Japanese Baseball stats?

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