It is currently Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:36 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:21 pm 
Offline
1000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 60354
Location: Suburbs FTW!
pizza_Place: SWEET BABY RAY"S?
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Are not all agents pretty much working with the same goals in mind for their clients?
That$ hard not to argue.

_________________
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
First off, the [2016 Cubs World Series] title was never a huge deal to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:30 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 42804
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
If winning ceases to be important, you have no game. It seems that in this case some abstract championships at some future date have been deemed more important than the actual championship this season for which Washington would likely be favored if Strasburg were pitching.

_________________
We acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of bigfan, slumlord, and denisdman.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:40 pm 
Offline
1000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 60354
Location: Suburbs FTW!
pizza_Place: SWEET BABY RAY"S?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
If winning ceases to be important, you have no game. It seems that in this case some abstract championships at some future date have been deemed more important than the actual championship this season for which Washington would likely be favored if Strasburg were pitching.
Two words; Frozen Pizza

_________________
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
First off, the [2016 Cubs World Series] title was never a huge deal to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 71641
Frank Coztansa wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
[Once they realized how goddam good their team was this year, the Nats could have spaced him out quite a bit, especially in the 2nd half of the season to limit his innings.
Im not sure that's a viable plan. Maybe one long shutdown.
I don't think its viable to totally shut a pitcher down for 2-6 weeks and then bring him back to go balls to the wall in the playoffs. Nobody ever does that unless they are rehabbing an injury, and even then they to go the minors to start a couple of games.

That is precisely what Im suggesting. Shut him down and build him back up.

But this is all hindsight. If they knew they were going to be good they should have started him later.

_________________
Now I don't give a fuck if you
Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, goddammit
That don't mean shit to me
Fuck your ethnicity


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 36120
Location: Happy Valley Goose Bay, NL
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
If winning ceases to be important, you have no game. It seems that in this case some abstract championships at some future date have been deemed more important than the actual championship this season for which Washington would likely be favored if Strasburg were pitching.

What a cavalier thing to do. I'm sure Strasburg's teammates feel great about this.

_________________
Molly Lambert wrote:
The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:16 am
Posts: 18695
pizza_Place: Aurelios
I am not in favor of this decision. You have to go for the title when you have the chance.

_________________
drinky wrote:
If you hate Laurence, then don't listen - don't comment. When he co-hosts the B&B show, take that day off ... listen to an old podcast of a Bernstein solo show and jerk off all day.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 26000
Location: Lurking Below the Surface...
pizza_Place: Dino's Pizza
Hank Scorpio wrote:
I am not in favor of this decision. You have to go for the title when you have the chance.

+1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:10 am
Posts: 34238
Location: Rock Ridge (splendid!)
pizza_Place: Charlie Fox's / Paisano's
Douchebag wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Watch them win without him

I hope they are swept in the first round and everyone in the organization is fired.

This is a terrible decision.

Actually, I hope they have a mammoth collapse and don't even make the playoffs.

It would be funny seeing them go to a 1 game playoff, and not have their ace being able to start it.



I like you, Betty. And I agree. And I start sentences with "and".

_________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been ... nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'.
- Isaac Asimov


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 48508
pizza_Place: Lina's Pizza
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
SHARK wrote:
Scott Boras cares only about the almighty dollar, just like "Arlis$" back in the day.

Name me an agent that doesn't.


$HARK i$n't alone in blaming Bora$ for thi$.

Le$ $aid the $ame thing.

_________________
Seacrest wrote:
If presented with a fact(s) that I do not like, I'll tell myself it's false.


chaspoppcap wrote:
You seem to have a hard on for me and I probably desire it


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 71641
What playoff team uses all 25 guys?

I bet he makes the roster

_________________
Now I don't give a fuck if you
Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, goddammit
That don't mean shit to me
Fuck your ethnicity


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:16 pm
Posts: 3414
pizza_Place: Gino's East.
SHARK wrote:
Scott Boras cares only about the almighty dollar, just like "Arlis$" back in the day.


Wouldn't you agree that his priorities are in line with his clients'?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:01 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 42804
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
NSJ wrote:
SHARK wrote:
Scott Boras cares only about the almighty dollar, just like "Arlis$" back in the day.


Wouldn't you agree that his priorities are in line with his clients'?


Not always. You can only spend so much money. Sometimes his clients prefer to go one place but he refuses to let them do that and leave money on the table at a different place. Also, it seems pretty clear listening to Strasburg that he doesn't want to shut it down.

_________________
We acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of bigfan, slumlord, and denisdman.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 71641
One odd thing about this from Bora$ standpoint is he's voluntarily giving up the Cy Young.


Cy Youngs are good to have in negotiations. But Bora$ will probably work around it and say he would have won if not for the shutdown

_________________
Now I don't give a fuck if you
Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, goddammit
That don't mean shit to me
Fuck your ethnicity


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:10 am 
Offline
1000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 60354
Location: Suburbs FTW!
pizza_Place: SWEET BABY RAY"S?
rogers park bryan wrote:
But Bora$ will probably work around it and say he would have won if not for the shutdown
But he cannot say the same about a potential NLCS and/or World Series MVP award.

_________________
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
First off, the [2016 Cubs World Series] title was never a huge deal to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 71641
Frank Coztansa wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
But Bora$ will probably work around it and say he would have won if not for the shutdown
But he cannot say the same about a potential NLCS and/or World Series MVP award.

Right, that was my original point that he's giving those things up, but Im sure Bora$ will find a way to spin it.

_________________
Now I don't give a fuck if you
Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, goddammit
That don't mean shit to me
Fuck your ethnicity


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:16 pm
Posts: 3414
pizza_Place: Gino's East.
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
You can only spend so much money.


:lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:41 am
Posts: 817
pizza_Place: Giordano's
I wonder what would have happen if the Cubs and Dusty had shut down Wood and Prior?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 71641
Makaveli wrote:
I wonder what would have happen if the Cubs and Dusty had shut down Wood and Prior?

Prior eventually came back to his dominant self after that but then got hit in the elbow with a pitch. So , I assume he would have continued to dominate.


Wood was in his 6th year, no reason to shut him down

_________________
Now I don't give a fuck if you
Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, goddammit
That don't mean shit to me
Fuck your ethnicity


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 15446
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
This is an awful decision and I am not convinced they won't pitch him in the post season..I would skip a start and keep his pitch count low but he needs to pitch this post season...Te TJ surgery has no bearing ..guys are having that surgery now when it is not even needed ..you come back stronger..and Boris works for Strasburg..there comes a time when you tell your agent his place and that time is now...and Wood/Prior were destined to be hurt ..I don't blame Dusty..you can either do it or you can't..the sooner you find that out the better.

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 71641
312player wrote:
...and Wood/Prior were destined to be hurt ..I don't blame Dusty..you can either do it or you can't..the sooner you find that out the better.

You cant know that about Prior. He pitched insane amounts in his second year and when he finally made it back in 2005, he was hit in the pitching elbow with a line drive.

_________________
Now I don't give a fuck if you
Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, goddammit
That don't mean shit to me
Fuck your ethnicity


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 15446
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
We will never know for sure..true..I believe both were juiced up and their arms could not handle the torque

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:10 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 42804
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
NSJ wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
You can only spend so much money.


:lol:


That's a excellent point! Nice post!

_________________
We acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of bigfan, slumlord, and denisdman.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 26000
Location: Lurking Below the Surface...
pizza_Place: Dino's Pizza
One of the few guys who cover Major League Baseball, Sports Illustrated's Tom Verducci, was a guest on "The Dan Patrick Show" this morning. Verducci was in Washington to analyze the Nationals' 10-9 loss Saturday afternoon vs. the Cardinals on "MLB on FOX" and he mentioned Strasburg in the same breath with another high-profile pitching prospect notorious for arm problems, too. He believes the Nationals don't want a similar Mark Prior-like fate to happen to Strasburg and believes they're doing the right thing shutting Stephen down.

http://www.danpatrick.com/2012/09/05/to ... strasburg/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:01 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 42804
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
SHARK wrote:
One of the few guys who cover Major League Baseball, Sports Illustrated's Tom Verducci, was a guest on "The Dan Patrick Show" this morning. Verducci was in Washington to analyze the Nationals' 10-9 loss Saturday afternoon vs. the Cardinals on "MLB on FOX" and he mentioned Strasburg in the same breath with another high-profile pitching prospect notorious for arm problems, too. He believes the Nationals don't want a similar Mark Prior-like fate to happen to Strasburg and believes they're doing the right thing shutting Stephen down.

http://www.danpatrick.com/2012/09/05/to ... strasburg/



If the Cubs had won in '03 like they should have, no one would give a fuck about Prior's arm subsequently falling off.

_________________
We acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of bigfan, slumlord, and denisdman.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 26000
Location: Lurking Below the Surface...
pizza_Place: Dino's Pizza
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
SHARK wrote:
One of the few guys who cover Major League Baseball, Sports Illustrated's Tom Verducci, was a guest on "The Dan Patrick Show" this morning. Verducci was in Washington to analyze the Nationals' 10-9 loss Saturday afternoon vs. the Cardinals on "MLB on FOX" and he mentioned Strasburg in the same breath with another high-profile pitching prospect notorious for arm problems, too. He believes the Nationals don't want a similar Mark Prior-like fate to happen to Strasburg and believes they're doing the right thing shutting Stephen down.

http://www.danpatrick.com/2012/09/05/to ... strasburg/



If the Cubs had won in '03 like they should have, no one would give a fuck about Prior's arm subsequently falling off.

We'll never know...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:12 pm 
Offline
1000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 60354
Location: Suburbs FTW!
pizza_Place: SWEET BABY RAY"S?
SHARK wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
If the Cubs had won in '03 like they should have, no one would give a fuck about Prior's arm subsequently falling off.
We'll never know...
We sure won't, SHARK. And that is a good thing :lol:

_________________
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
First off, the [2016 Cubs World Series] title was never a huge deal to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:28 am
Posts: 11866
Location: Boofoo Zoo
pizza_Place: Chuck E Cheese
Shut down a start early supposedly because he was distracted by the impending shutdown. Nice work Nats.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:10 pm
Posts: 6212
Nats have been a great story, but now I kind of hope they fall apart. To me, you let the kid pitch. This could be their best chance at a WS Title, so you have to take the chance.

_________________
Fuck Edwards and Zobrist


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 71641
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:


If the Cubs had won in '03 like they should have, no one would give a fuck about Prior's arm subsequently falling off.

I would have been a little upset.


But yeah, you're right




How The Nationals And Baseball’s New Conventional Wisdom Ended Stephen Strasburg’s Season Too Soon

Jack Dickey

On Friday night, Stephen Strasburg made his last appearance of the season. The shutdown has come. The Nationals will not use him down the stretch, and they will not use him in the playoffs. The best pitcher on the league's best team will not sniff a moment of the team's most important games.

Nats brass says that shutting down Strasburg's arm after 160ish innings was always the plan, and the only acceptable plan, to protect their valuable, surgically repaired young pitcher. But the NL East team chasing Washington tried another strategy with their recently Tommy John'd righty, and it's worked well so far. Here's Ben Lindbergh at Baseball Prospectus:

Strasburg had Tommy John surgery on September 3, 2010. Braves starter Kris Medlen underwent the same procedure a couple weeks earlier, on August 18th. Strasburg returned to a professional mound on August 7 of the following season and totaled 44 1/3 innings. Medlen followed in his footsteps several weeks later, getting into a game on September 25th and pitching 2 1/3 innings before the end of the year.

That takes us to 2012. Strasburg started the season in the rotation and has stayed there ever since, without any major adjustments made to his schedule. Medlen started the season in the bullpen and didn't make his first start until July 31st. Since then, he's made six, and he hasn't allowed more than one run in any of them. In his last 28 1/3 innings, including eight last night in San Diego, he hasn't allowed any (almost halfway to Hershiser!) Medlen wasn't in Atlanta's playoff rotation a month ago, but he might be now. It's an option, at least: because he started the season in the bullpen, Medlen is up to only 95 innings, nowhere near the end of his leash.

Medlen's scoreless streak has since ended, thanks to an unearned run he allowed in a five-hit, no-walk, 12-strikeout complete-game taming of the Colorado Rockies on Monday. But the point remains: Medlen will be available to handle a full workload in September and October, while Strasburg won't. This was a calculated choice by Atlanta. GM Frank Wren told manager Fredi Gonzalez in March that he shouldn't open the season with Medlen in the rotation, because he'd never want to take him out.

The Nationals could have done something like that with Strasburg, holding him in the pen early in the season. They've had John Lannan—who has a track record as a league-average starter—in their Triple-A rotation all year. Lannan made spot starts for the big club in late July and early August and won both games, and the Nats are trusting him to fill Strasburg's spot for the rest of the season. Lannan, or Zach Duke, his Syracuse Chiefs teammate, could have handled half a season in the rotation well enough.

Lindbergh also suggests that the Nationals should have tinkered with Strasburg at midseason. Even if they didn't know in April that they'd have a shot at the playoffs, surely they knew in June. On June 13, the Nats were 15 games over .500 and had a five-game lead over their closest divisional competitors. They could have skipped some of Strasburg's starts and had him make occasional relief appearances to stay fresh, with side sessions to maintain his stamina.

Instead, they found themselves up against the innings limit.

Nats GM Mike Rizzo says the public only knows 10 percent of what's going on with Strasburg, and because of that, they shouldn't judge his decisions. But the last decade in MLB has been about opening up the game to the wisdom of outsiders—Bill James, Keith Woolner, and the Baseball Prospectus alumni in Houston. The Nats have used the Strasburg affair to retreat into old-timey gnosticism.

Much of the little bit we do know about the Nats' reasoning on Strasburg came from interviews the Washington Post's Mike Wise did with Scott Boras, Strasburg's agent. Boras told the Nationals he wouldn't let Strasburg sign there if Washington didn't put his health first. He said he wouldn't bring any of his players there if Washington didn't listen to the doctors. Boras, though he denies it, is guiding policy in Washington.

But when Boras talks, he doesn't sound like a man who's adhering to any medical or scientific method, even though Wise mentions his experience "stud[ying] pharmacology and medicine for eight years." Boras loves trotting out this bit:

Compiling a list of 12 pitchers between 1983 and 2003 who had thrown at least 600 innings by 23 years old—Greg Maddux, Dwight Gooden, Fernando Valenzuela, Bret Saberhagen, Steve Avery and Alex Fernandez among them—they found that 11 did not exceed 700 innings following their 30th birthday. They burned out early. The only exception was Maddux, whose calling card was painting corners as opposed to throwing heat, and he underwent a conditioning and strength program at a young age.

In another study, Boras's staff examined 21 prominent, durable pitchers that threw 1,500 innings past the age of 30 since 1990. Among them were Kevin Brown, Tom Candiotti, Roger Clemens, Chuck Finley, Tom Glavine, Orel Hershiser, Randy Johnson, Derek Lowe, Al Leiter, Dennis Martinez, Jamie Moyer, Terry Mulholland, Mike Mussina, Kenny Rogers, Curt Schilling, Tim Wakefield, David Wells and Maddux. Maddux was the only pitcher on that list to have thrown more than 500 innings by the age of 23. Other than having career longevity, all but Maddux shared the other defining characteristic with that group. Through age 23, they had thrown 500 innings or less.

Fun stats! But Stephen Strasburg turned 24 on July 20. He made a start that night: five and a third innings in a game the Nats eventually lost, 11-10, in 11 innings. That start brought him to a whopping 202.1 big-league innings (plus 75.2 in the minors) for his career, not nearly halfway to Boras's threshold. You and I are closer to Stephen Strasburg in innings pitched before age 23 than Strasburg is to Dwight Gooden or Bret Saberhagen.

As for Boras's list of long-lived pitchers, it's a trawl net of red herrings. He includes two knuckleballers—one of whom was a position player at age 23—and a bunch of mechanical messes who didn't get big-league innings before age 23 because they hadn't learned to pitch yet. None of those pitchers has much to do with Stephen Strasburg.

But the Nationals have been won over by Boras's thinking, because they plan on sharing an interest in Strasburg for the long term. They'll want to lock him up eventually, and when they do, they'll pay a lot for it. Mike Rizzo is justifiably afraid of buying a $200 million lemon, so he's doing everything possible to prevent it, including keeping Strasburg out of the bullpen and on regular rest.

But all he's doing in the process is ensuring that pro baseball policy remains inflexible and blockheaded. Once upon a time teams taxed arms carelessly without regard for best practices. Now they protect their pitchers rigidly, with only slightly more regard for what works and serves everyone best. The conventional wisdom in baseball may shift over time, but it always rules.

_________________
Now I don't give a fuck if you
Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, goddammit
That don't mean shit to me
Fuck your ethnicity


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 15446
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Strasburg seems upset, so why not fire Boras or threaten to..demand that you pitch in the post season after missing meaningless games in September. I don't think he will pitch again this season and I think it costs Washington a ring.

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group