Chicago Fanatics Message Board :: View topic - Is there an argument that Orr or Lemieux were the best?

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

badrogue17 wrote:

Orr's career was less than half that of Robinson's ( not Robinsons fault obviously and he also demonstrated he was remarkable for career excellence as evidenced by his plus / minus).

A good comparison for Orr would be Mickey Mantle. They both had Hall of Fame careers in spite of being virtually crippled. There's no telling what they might have done had they not been gimpy.

And they both changed their respective games. There had never been a defenseman who could skate and stickhandle like Orr. The things that were expected of defensemen post-Orr were drastically different. There had never been a combination of power and speed like Mantle. Mickey Mantle is the sole reason some of our dads had us out in the backyard turned around learning how to bat left-handed.

Also, I wouldn't exactly call Robinson and Orr the same era. I can remember Robinson's entire career. Not so for Orr. And I do believe they played as a pair on a Canadian team when Orr was all busted down and he was still the dominant guy of the two.

I think there's a misconception that because Orr's offensive numbers are so far off the charts that he was more like Paul Coffey and didn't take care of his defensive responsibilities which anyone who played against him. with him, or watched him play refute. He body checked, he blocked shots, he stripped opponents of the puck, he cleared the crease. He did everything a defenseman was supposed to do. He killed penalties by himself ragging the puck, no one could take it away . Its hard for the opponent to score goals when they don't have the puck . When he did get caught up ice, he would still beat everyone back down because he was faster than everyone else. He was the total package. Most people say that Nick Lidstrom is the best modern day defenseman but theres nothing he did that Orr didn't do as well or in a lot of cases a lot better.The position changed because of Orr. There are legit arguments that Orr was the greatest player ever, ahead of Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux. Where are Nick Lidstrom, Ray Borque, Scott Stevens ( who never even won 1 Norris as best defenseman mind you) in those debates? Not even in the picture. Orr isn't there because he was the greatest offensive defenseman ever , its because he was the most complete player ever to lace them up . Thats what sets him apart from any other defenseman, ever.

Author:	pittmike [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there an argument that Orr or Lemieux were the best?
Rouge you make good points but are you going strictly off stats and old clips? You are to young to have watched him play?

Author:	badrogue17 [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there an argument that Orr or Lemieux were the best?
pittmike wrote: Rouge you make good points but are you going strictly off stats and old clips? You are to young to have watched him play? I watched him but Im not Jason Bernstein so I wasn't watching and thinking critically that young an age. I go off what stats I can find, testimony and quotes from people who played or were around the game in that era . I don't know what else you can use but the record of fact of what he did via numbers. Again Mike, Orr is regarded by many as not just the greatest defenseman ever, but the greatest all around player , ever. All around player, not just greatest offensive defenseman. Look at any poll or survey of hockey people. He's either 1, 2,or 3. Nobody ever says that about Lidstrom, Borque, etc. Is every poll ever taken that wrong? I didn't see Willie Mays , Mantle, Williams, Ruth, play but I don't doubt what everyone says about him and they are top 5 in any survey of all time greatest players ever. I don't know what else to use as a definitive measuring stick than whats already out there. By any existing criteria if Orr isn't the best player ever he's top 2 or 3 which also means by default and on its own merit he's the best defenseman ever.

Author:	pittmike [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there an argument that Orr or Lemieux were the best?
I wasn't giving you a hard time. I just knew he was done before I went to my first Hawks game so I figured you were the same.

Author:	Joe Orr Road Rod [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there an argument that Orr or Lemieux were the best?
badrogue17 wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: badrogue17 wrote: Orr's career was less than half that of Robinson's ( not Robinsons fault obviously and he also demonstrated he was remarkable for career excellence as evidenced by his plus / minus). A good comparison for Orr would be Mickey Mantle. They both had Hall of Fame careers in spite of being virtually crippled. There's no telling what they might have done had they not been gimpy. And they both changed their respective games. There had never been a defenseman who could skate and stickhandle like Orr. The things that were expected of defensemen post-Orr were drastically different. There had never been a combination of power and speed like Mantle. Mickey Mantle is the sole reason some of our dads had us out in the backyard turned around learning how to bat left-handed. Also, I wouldn't exactly call Robinson and Orr the same era. I can remember Robinson's entire career. Not so for Orr. And I do believe they played as a pair on a Canadian team when Orr was all busted down and he was still the dominant guy of the two. I think there's a misconception that because Orr's offensive numbers are so far off the charts that he was more like Paul Coffey and didn't take care of his defensive responsibilities which anyone who played against him. with him, or watched him play refute. He body checked, he blocked shots, he stripped opponents of the puck, he cleared the crease. He did everything a defenseman was supposed to do. He killed penalties by himself ragging the puck, no one could take it away . Its hard for the opponent to score goals when they don't have the puck . When he did get caught up ice, he would still beat everyone back down because he was faster than everyone else. He was the total package. Most people say that Nick Lidstrom is the best modern day defenseman but theres nothing he did that Orr didn't do as well or in a lot of cases a lot better.The position changed because of Orr. There are legit arguments that Orr was the greatest player ever, ahead of Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux. Where are Nick Lidstrom, Ray Borque, Scott Stevens ( who never even won 1 Norris as best defenseman mind you) in those debates? Not even in the picture. Orr isn't there because he was the greatest offensive defenseman ever , its because he was the most complete player ever to lace them up . Thats what sets him apart from any other defenseman, ever. Great post. Orr could have played any position on the ice and been the best at it. If he had centered a line, I'm not saying he would have scored like Gretzky because the game was so different, but he undoubtedly would have put up numbers the likes of which hadn't been seen to that point in time.

Author:	Joe Orr Road Rod [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there an argument that Orr or Lemieux were the best?
pittmike wrote: Rouge you make good points but are you going strictly off stats and old clips? You are to young to have watched him play? I'm a little older than Rogue and I remember watching him, but more so hearing the Hawks play Boston on the radio. Still, I think he was already starting to break down when I remember him best. And that just shows you how great he was. He wasn't nearly the same player in '73 and '74 that he had been and he was still the best player in the damn game. When Wirtz signed him to placate the angry mob that was pissed about Hull, he was finished. I think he only played 4 games for the Hawks.

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Author:	Curious Hair [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there an argument that Orr or Lemieux were the best?
Man, I feel like I'm reading Old Colony Avenue Rod here on Boston Sports Fan Message Board today. NO ONE'S EVAH BEEN BETTAH THAN BAWBBY FACKIN' AWWWWWW

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