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IMU
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:25 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Hill had a PERFECT GAME taken away because he received no run support. He could not have performed any better then he did for the 9 inning game. :roll:
Rich Hill didn't do his job tonight because he gave up a home run while the opposing pitcher didn't. In my opinion, 3 more strikeouts doesn't justify giving up a home run.

Rich Hill had the ball put in play against him far less than Trevor Williams did. Rich Hill did this more successfully and for longer.

Rich Hill can not be criticized for what he did or did not do in the 10th inning he pitched. He pitched one of the single best ballgames of the season. Trevor Williams did not.

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Brick
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:29 am 
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IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Hill had a PERFECT GAME taken away because he received no run support. He could not have performed any better then he did for the 9 inning game. :roll:
Rich Hill didn't do his job tonight because he gave up a home run while the opposing pitcher didn't. In my opinion, 3 more strikeouts doesn't justify giving up a home run.

Rich Hill had the ball put in play against him far less than Trevor Williams did. Rich Hill did this more successfully and for longer.

Rich Hill can not be criticized for what he did or did not do in the 10th inning he pitched. He pitched one of the single best ballgames of the season. Trevor Williams did not.
Rich Hill can't be criticized for giving up a home run? :lol:

Anyways, I'll defer to you.

Was the Humber perfect game a better performance than the Kerry Wood 20 strikeout game?

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Rod
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:33 am 
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Juiced wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I don't know what you're babbling about this morning, and I don't really want to find out.
It's the thought behind BABIP, though I should have included walks but those walks in that game weren't damaging to the opposing team.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/babip/

Quote:
BABIP is likely even more important when evaluating pitchers because they have almost no control over what happens to a ball once it is put in play. A pitcher can control their strikeouts, walks, and home runs, and through those, the number of balls they allow to be put into play, but once the ball leaves the bat, it’s out of their hands. As a result, pitcher BABIP is heavily influenced by defense and luck, which means the number of hits a pitcher gives up is influenced by things outside of their control. And if hits are somewhat outside of a pitcher’s control, so will their runs allowed totals.


Hill had a PERFECT GAME taken away because he received no run support. He could not have performed any better then he did for the 9 inning game. :roll:


Did Trevor Williams receive "run support"?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:41 am 
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leashyourkids
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:42 am 
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Rich Hill pitched a perfect game.

Take a step back and think about that for a moment rather than just digging in.

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:44 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Rich Hill pitched a perfect game.
No he didn't.

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IMU
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:45 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Hill had a PERFECT GAME taken away because he received no run support. He could not have performed any better then he did for the 9 inning game. :roll:
Rich Hill didn't do his job tonight because he gave up a home run while the opposing pitcher didn't. In my opinion, 3 more strikeouts doesn't justify giving up a home run.

Rich Hill had the ball put in play against him far less than Trevor Williams did. Rich Hill did this more successfully and for longer.

Rich Hill can not be criticized for what he did or did not do in the 10th inning he pitched. He pitched one of the single best ballgames of the season. Trevor Williams did not.
Rich Hill can't be criticized for giving up a home run? :lol:

Anyways, I'll defer to you.

Was the Humber perfect game a better performance than the Kerry Wood 20 strikeout game?

Kerry Wood's 20 strikeout game was the greatest game ever pitched.

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Brick
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:45 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Rich Hill pitched a perfect game.

Take a step back and think about that for a moment rather than just digging in.

Are you not aware I have an ulterior motive here?

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Brick
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:47 am 
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IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Hill had a PERFECT GAME taken away because he received no run support. He could not have performed any better then he did for the 9 inning game. :roll:
Rich Hill didn't do his job tonight because he gave up a home run while the opposing pitcher didn't. In my opinion, 3 more strikeouts doesn't justify giving up a home run.

Rich Hill had the ball put in play against him far less than Trevor Williams did. Rich Hill did this more successfully and for longer.

Rich Hill can not be criticized for what he did or did not do in the 10th inning he pitched. He pitched one of the single best ballgames of the season. Trevor Williams did not.
Rich Hill can't be criticized for giving up a home run? :lol:

Anyways, I'll defer to you.

Was the Humber perfect game a better performance than the Kerry Wood 20 strikeout game?

Kerry Wood's 20 strikeout game was the greatest game ever pitched.
Why is that?

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:49 am 
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IMU wrote:
Kerry Wood's 20 strikeout game was the greatest game ever pitched.
He gave up a hit, and hit a batter. And you are calling that the best game ever pitched, even better than a World Series perfect game, and a division series no hitter.

Read your post a few times. Then walk away for 5 minutes, and think about it. Then come back and reply again.

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IMU
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:49 am 
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He dominated the opposing team for 9 innings. And same as Rich Hill's outing, it SHOULD have been a no-hitter through 9 innings because Orie should have made the play on Gutierrez.

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IMU
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:50 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
IMU wrote:
Kerry Wood's 20 strikeout game was the greatest game ever pitched.
He gave up a hit, and hit a batter. And you are calling that the best game ever pitched, even better than a World Series perfect game, and a division series no hitter.

Read your post a few times. Then walk away for 5 minutes, and think about it. Then come back and reply again.

Game Score.

Look, you guys are White Sox fans. You cannot admit a Cubs player had the greatest regular season pitching performance of all time. I understand.

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:51 am 
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:lol: Gamescore and "should have" is your argument. There isn't even a word to describe the stupidity in that.

I'll edit too.
Look, you are using a made up formula as your basis for the Kerry Wood game. If Bill James or Tom Tango simply said "add 20 points for a 9 inning no hitter, and add 25 points for a 9 inning perfect game" Wood's game falls well back.

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Last edited by Frank Coztansa on Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Brick
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:54 am 
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IMU wrote:
He dominated the opposing team for 9 innings. And same as Rich Hill's outing, it SHOULD have been a no-hitter through 9 innings because Orie should have made the play on Gutierrez.
The box score tells a different story.

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IMU
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:57 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
:lol: Gamescore and "should have" is your argument.

There isn't even a word to describe the stupidity in that.

There will always be the ignorant types that want to criticize and devalue what they don't understand.

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leashyourkids
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:59 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Rich Hill pitched a perfect game.

Take a step back and think about that for a moment rather than just digging in.

Are you not aware I have an ulterior motive here?


I can't keep up.

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:59 am 
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IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
:lol: Gamescore and "should have" is your argument.

There isn't even a word to describe the stupidity in that.

There will always be the ignorant types that want to criticize and devalue what they don't understand.

Yeah, some people do not understand how allowing two base runners is worse than allowing zero. Some people are ignorant to the fact that a perfect game in a World Series is better than any 20 strikeout game could ever be.

Some ignorant people proclaim themselves a "baseball expert who could get a job in MANY MLB front offices" seem to have trouble understanding such simplistic concepts.

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Juiced
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:04 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Hill had a PERFECT GAME taken away because he received no run support. He could not have performed any better then he did for the 9 inning game. :roll:
Rich Hill didn't do his job tonight because he gave up a home run while the opposing pitcher didn't. In my opinion, 3 more strikeouts doesn't justify giving up a home run.


You're missing the main point. HIS job was done after 9 innings of baseball. He could not have played a better game, he was PERFECT. His team did not do their job and caused him to play EXTRA baseball. If his team scores 1 run, the HR never happens and he goes in the history books with a perfect game.

No way you can say it was his fault he lost the game. He lost in extra innings that never should have been played in the first place if his teammates do their job.
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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:06 am 
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Stop saying Hill pitched a perfect game, because you are wrong. There was a base runner in the top of the 9th.

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Juiced
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:08 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I don't know what you're babbling about this morning, and I don't really want to find out.
It's the thought behind BABIP, though I should have included walks but those walks in that game weren't damaging to the opposing team.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/babip/

Quote:
BABIP is likely even more important when evaluating pitchers because they have almost no control over what happens to a ball once it is put in play. A pitcher can control their strikeouts, walks, and home runs, and through those, the number of balls they allow to be put into play, but once the ball leaves the bat, it’s out of their hands. As a result, pitcher BABIP is heavily influenced by defense and luck, which means the number of hits a pitcher gives up is influenced by things outside of their control. And if hits are somewhat outside of a pitcher’s control, so will their runs allowed totals.


Hill had a PERFECT GAME taken away because he received no run support. He could not have performed any better then he did for the 9 inning game. :roll:


Did Trevor Williams receive "run support"?


Could Trevor Williams have pitched better for nine innings? YES
Could Rich Hill have pitched better for nine innings? NO

Williams was not perfect for the game and Hill was.
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Juiced
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:12 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Stop saying Hill pitched a perfect game, because you are wrong. There was a base runner in the top of the 9th.


Frank, go back to the Cubs section, the big boys are having a conversation.

Quote:
Hill lost his perfect game Wednesday on an error in the ninth inning before giving up a leadoff homer in the 10th in a 1-0 loss at Pittsburgh.

He was still perfect as a pitcher. His teammates again let him down.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/hill-loses-no-hit-try-on-hr-in-10th-pirates-top-dodgers-1-0/ar-AAqCcdw?OCID=ansmsnnews11
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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:13 am 
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Juiced wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Stop saying Hill pitched a perfect game, because you are wrong. There was a base runner in the top of the 9th.


Frank, go back to the Cubs section, the big boys are having a conversation.

Quote:
Hill lost his perfect game Wednesday on an error in the ninth inning before giving up a leadoff homer in the 10th in a 1-0 loss at Pittsburgh.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/hill-loses-no-hit-try-on-hr-in-10th-pirates-top-dodgers-1-0/ar-AAqCcdw?OCID=ansmsnnews11
Thanks for posting a link that proves I am correct.

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Rod
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:15 am 
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Juiced wrote:
HIS job was done after 9 innings of baseball.


:lol: Apparently not.

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Juiced
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:17 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
Hill had a PERFECT GAME taken away because he received no run support. He could not have performed any better then he did for the 9 inning game. :roll:
Rich Hill didn't do his job tonight because he gave up a home run while the opposing pitcher didn't. In my opinion, 3 more strikeouts doesn't justify giving up a home run.

Rich Hill had the ball put in play against him far less than Trevor Williams did. Rich Hill did this more successfully and for longer.

Rich Hill can not be criticized for what he did or did not do in the 10th inning he pitched. He pitched one of the single best ballgames of the season. Trevor Williams did not.
Rich Hill can't be criticized for giving up a home run? :lol:

Anyways, I'll defer to you.

Was the Humber perfect game a better performance than the Kerry Wood 20 strikeout game?


A better team performance, YES. Individually NO.
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Rod
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:17 am 
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Juiced wrote:
Could Trevor Williams have pitched better for nine innings? YES
Could Rich Hill have pitched better for nine innings? NO

Williams was not perfect for the game and Hill was.


There are many factually incorrect statements above and a few questionable opinions.

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Brick
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:17 am 
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Juiced wrote:
You're missing the main point. HIS job was done after 9 innings of baseball. He could not have played a better game, he was PERFECT. His team did not do their job and caused him to play EXTRA baseball. If his team scores 1 run, the HR never happens and he goes in the history books with a perfect game.
Why did he pitch the 10th if his job was done? This point seems arbitrary. How you play in overtime/extra innings no longer matters because you could have won in regulation if something else happened besides what actually did happen?
Juiced wrote:
No way you can say it was his fault he lost the game. He lost in extra innings that never should have been played in the first place if his teammates do their job.
He pitched a very good game. So did the pitchers on the other side.

Aren't we told by "math" to judge pitchers primarily on strikeouts, walks, and home runs given up? When you are the only pitcher to give up a home run in a game that you end up losing how is that not on you for letting it happen?

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Brick
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:18 am 
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Juiced wrote:
A better team performance, YES. Individually NO.
Why do you say that?

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Juiced
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:19 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juiced wrote:
HIS job was done after 9 innings of baseball.


:lol: Apparently not.


If the team does their job, he is done. They did not and caused him to have to go out for the 10th. What part of this confuses you?
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Juiced
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:21 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juiced wrote:
A better team performance, YES. Individually NO.
Why do you say that?


Because Humber needed more defense from his team to help him complete a perfect game. Wood struck out 20 batters and needed an average defensive effort(which he did not get) to complete his game. You could argue if Wood had the defense that Humber did that he would have struck out 20 AND thrown a perfect game.
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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:24 am 
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Juiced wrote:
If the team does their job, he is done. They did not and caused him to have to go out for the 10th. What part of this confuses you?
Rich Hill went 0-4 at the plate. One of those outs was with the bases loaded, and another was with a runner on second base. Had Rich Hill done a better job as a batter, he might have gotten the win and a no hitter.

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