Separate issue.

10 years ago I had an almost 3 year old and new born. I was the sole caregiver 4 days a week for 24 hours a day. We had "enough" money and my parents helped often. At about 9 months my husband came home 2 of us were sick that week and as soon as he walked in the door I said this buzzing in my head is never going to go away and I burst into tears. And it's not like I'm a cryer. You get what you get, you think they will bring joy and all this other shit and they do. But it's also the most difficult, stressful, and time consuming test of patience you will ever go thru.

I agree with all of this but where does the money come from?

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Prison is also there as a punitive measure, whether or not the inmate poses danger to the rest of us.

I just don’t think it’s my place to forgive (or not). Her family was wronged - they’ve seemingly moved on, save for the dead toddler. She’s obviously done better than her low point but candidly, I don’t really care if she tripped over the bar she set for herself. She was given 30yrs and I think that’s a sufficiently light punishment for killing a child that she should serve the full term.

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I’m not sure I understand the difference. Have I watched my children for days without assistance? Yes. Was I living this woman’s life day-to-day? Obviously not, but it’s not like she had no agency. She chose to have the kids and chose to kill one of them.

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What the devil are you talking about? You think she has no responsibility for having three kids at that age out of wedlock with no one to help her? They didn't just show up on her door one day.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

A couple of posts ago you seemed to think it was up to the individual. I think it's up to mostly the individual, then family, then community. I don't like when the government gets involved because they seem to enrich themselves and not anybody else, in fact life becomes more difficult for the rest of us. The school system is disgusting with this shit and they aren't teaching anymore.

Where does this lady fall on the spectrum? She failed herself, her family seems to have failed her as well. Are we as a community in any way responsible for this woman's behavior?

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You have no idea about her "agency" and your agency sounds a lot different than hers.

Were the children foisted on her? Did somebody force her to deliberately suffocate her 2yr old?

We’ve taken a hard turn into soft-bigotry-of-low-expectations territory.

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What are you talking about? Are you going to set the morality and responsibility levels everybody should meet and determine how we treat those that don't meet those standards? In a perfect world...but do we punish those that don't make perfect decisions. I think she made choices that I would not have. With kids you get what you get, sometimes it's great sometimes it's a fucking disaster. I think she snapped and everything after that is terrible and unfortunate. What should be in not what is/was.

All I know is on my best days parenting can be...a challenge. I can't imagine her situation and I think she is worthy of forgiveness and mercy at this point. She seems to have done a lot of good over the last 20 years and her family sounds like they believe it too. That's more important than any opinion you or I have.

Not at all.

We punish people who murder babies with life in prison. We're not punishing her for having babies. We're punishing here for murdering one. 40 years ago she'd get the death penalty. Today all I ask is life in prison. You're nuts to boil this down to she's a victim of circumstance. She killed a little baby.


This ain't about you. It ain't about your hard life as a mommy at home. Stop it. It's about a murdering shit that killed a tiny child. Getting life was the best she should have hoped for. Getting less time than someone gets for robbing a bank or counterfeiting twenties is insane.

I cant continue on talking to you about this.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Then stop responding.

I don't think she deserves life in prison considering all she has done from that article in the last 20 years. You see this in a singular absolute term, I don't. I obviously don't excuse or approve of what she did but I do understand the chain of events and her desperation.

But it brings up a larger point. What is the point of prison? Is it to keep us safe? Is it to punish? Is it to rehabilitate?

Ideally the first and last. But I think MANY would argue the second.

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All three for the win.

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By the accounts in the article those 2 criteria have been met here, no?

And I'm all for "punishment" because sometimes I think it coincides with justice. Just not in this case imo. Very few moms wake up and start the day thinking they are going to kill one of their kids and be happy about it.

I served on a jury for a 1D murder trial. Woman murdered her newborn. Spaulding’s constant defense of the baby killer in this thread is bizarre.

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-- source

We're going to cut free school lunches

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It certainly is.

It also makes RFDC's cheerleading seem even more bizarre than it did in the first place.

hey you never know, we've had people defend driving drunk here

This isn't a defense of her and that some of you take it as one is what I think is bizarre. From what's in the article I think it's tough to make the argument that she has not paid her debt to society. Her crime was terrible but I don't think her situation is fully understood. Cook County has let some pretty terrible people out of jail just with in this past year. While their crimes maybe not be as terrible, their motives or whatever you want to call it are much worse. If the point of prison is keeping the public safe or rehabilitation I think this woman meets that. Somebody like Andrea Yates might never get out, she seems crazy and broken from reality, fine keep her locked up. There are a few cases like this that I've read and it's pure evil but a lot of them if the backstory is given it's easy to see how it happens. That's all. Whatever.

That's breaking my heart.

I don't see it as defense of her or her actions. I think it's odd you do.

Like you and this murderer are the sole members of the PARENTING IS HARD club?

You have what, three kids? All older at this point than my two and a half year old, and I've yelled at him and had some rough days, but never, ever in my wildest, sleep deprived or IPA induced state did it even cross my mind to tie MY CHILD's "hands and feet together, put a sock in his mouth, and wrap tape around his mouth and neck," because I needed sleep.

That is indefensible. Jeez Alou.

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Over-crowding of prisons is a problem. Releasing this baby-killer is not a good first step towards resolving it. She is right where she belongs.

It is our place as a society to help others. And what better way then through forgiveness.

And you and I take direct part in that through those we choose to elect to public office that set policy, and appoint people like parole board members.

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When people kill people the law is far more concerned with intent than that ultimate result. I'll let Spualding correct me, but I think she's saying that the lady's particular situation impacted her intent. Obviously she's still responsible for her own actions but that's what I'm gathering from what Spaulding is saying.

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Is there some obscure rule I am unaware of that states forgiveness is not able to be obtained or is somehow invalid if the party being offered forgiveness is in a prison cell?

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I think the case is troubling Spiral not just because the woman is being released, but the way the article is being written, it seems to write off the murder as just some unfortunate mistake. I mean, even JLN pointed out the “wording”. Like it was passive, as if her delusions of hearing voices can be explained away as a momentary lapse of judgement.

That might be believable if in a moment of panic and anger, she grabbed the child by the neck and pressed too hard. I’ve seen cases like that happen on court shows, or true crime shows. That can at least be looked as…it was a horrible moment. Still should be prosecuted, still should be punished. But maybe that can be re-addressed after 20 years of redeeming yourself.
But murder is about intent, and the intent was to *kill* the child. Not shut her up. This wasn’t a case where she put her hand over the baby’s mouth angrily and kept it there until she stopped breathing. She forcibly put something in the baby’s mouth, bound her, and suffocated her until she was dead. If she did that to a peer, or someone older than her, would she be given the same second chance? Should she? That opens up a whole other can of worms.
So what seems to bother him, and he can correct me if I’m wrong, is that what he foresees is people taking advantage of this mindset—not just the mindset of the woman trying to get out of jail—but the mindset of people like Coleman (who sounds more like a defense attorney than a prosecutor here), and the writer of the article. The fear of a court that would be willing to forgive, at this point, something like this. Forget us plebes, the system itself could change. Though I wouldn’t say she “got off free” since she did do 20 years of time.

The intent in this case isn’t much different than Eric Smith who bludgeoned a 4 year-old to death when he was 12. He didn’t just take out his aggression on this kid, he thoroughly beat him, and even sodomized him. That’s why he’ll stay in prison for the rest of his life. According to whatever I’ve read about him, he’s fully remorseful and seemingly stable. But he should *never* get out of prison, because if you have a mindset, anytime in your life, that allows you to go that far…that means there is something in your brain that’s broken and can’t be fixed. And I wouldn’t be comfortable letting someone like that back into society. Growing up in abusive households is almost a calling card for serial killers. Are we giving them a pass too?

Plenty of mothers out there have been put in the exact same position as that woman, with post partum depression, and the outcome wasn’t murder.

I didn't defend any of that.

I have 2 kids that have never thought of abusing.

Perfectly stated.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014